Even if every last word of the Qur’an was factually correct; even if every last phrase and syntactical structure, every clause and trope was testiment to the very pinnacle of Arabic language excellence; even then, the best that might be said of the Qur’an was that it was an excellently factual book, perfectly written. None of that would, on its own, be evidence of some divine origin.

True. That is not the reason why Muslims claim the Qur’an to be divine. It is simply a feature of the book.

Pathetic.

He had a “set” point of view that he wanted to air. But I don’t play such games. He had wanted to know my views… all he had to do was ask.

Predictably, he went the way many do… hysterical and tired old accusations and insults. It is last domain of ignorant – to rant and rave.
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There is, of course, one last “violent” thing left to do:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

“An ad hominem (Latin for “to the man” or “to the person”), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it. Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as a logical fallacy.”

This isn’t outright lies as are often found in the Mail. While it’s worth alerting The Guardian to these ties to anti-semtism from this author to avoid him embarrassing the paper in the future, the actual piece they printed on this occasion was correct on the basic facts and was not anti-semitic.

More importantly, let me draw attention – that is, let me draw EVERYONE’S ATTENTION, to the fact that Amin refuses to answer a direct question, a question that gets right to the very heart of the matter, that addresses the basis of this post, that asks when, if ever, we are permitted to criticize Islam. This question, at least the way I’ve formulated it, serves to elucidate the Muslim attitude toward free speech,even among moderates (or those posing as moderates).

I don’t actually have to answer anything… I am not obliged in any such way. Also I have explained my objections to it – also that I don’t even know how to answer it. And I have said clearly… I don’t play such games. Giving a hypothetical scenario to illicit a particular response.

Also I don’t think there is anyone else ….

It is VERY significant, in my opinion, that Amin won’t answer. Let me say here that Islam, at least in the Aminian version, is a worldview that uses obfuscation and evasion, that won’t engage in open, honest debate, that hides in obscurity and rhetoric, that opposes open discussion, that won’t admit it’s faults (or even the possibility of faults), that its foundation is hypocrisy and cowardice.

I have got nothing to do with no ….. “American Islam”

I propose that Amin should be ignored. There’s absolutely no point in engaging with someone who refuses to engage with any semblance of intellectual honesty, or courage.

Ah…. we have already had that…. so you are probably that same person as above… in the same way and manner as before…

See i was 100% right … you are playing games. You had this agenda… and I judged it from the word go…..

You had your prejudice and hate that you wanted to offload – personally against me and against Islam. You have been doing it… repeatedly.

You made it personal…. you called me a liar but couldn’t justify it… and then which mistakes….

there we have it…. I had you figured perfectly well….. and you have no justifications for your current hysterics either.

————

Now you will change your name and post again…. for what? And you “engaged” with me…. not the other way around.

It is VERY significant, in my opinion, that Amin won’t answer. Let me say here that Islam, at least in the Aminian version, is a worldview that uses obfuscation and evasion, that won’t engage in open, honest debate, that hides in obscurity and rhetoric, that opposes open discussion, that won’t admit it’s faults (or even the possibility of faults), that its foundation is hypocrisy and cowardice.

I propose that Amin should be ignored. There’s absolutely no point in engaging with someone who refuses to engage with any semblance of intellectual honesty, or courage.

I invite other responses. Hereafter, however, Amin’s posts are insignificant.

huh? … I didn’t get this… why would pointing to this be faulty logic?

How does this imply my motives? Again, unjustified. I guess it’s fun to make things up.

Crowd mentality… getting back up for an attack. Why rely on audience anyway….

————————

All of this was posted AFTER you told me I’m playing games, not before.

You are and were playing games…. also this was on a different comment. Plus what you said … and that doesn’t even go together.

You are a liar, Amin. And only cowards don’t admit their mistakes.

Would you care to give me a lie…… that I have told? And which mistake are you referring to…. see I had you judged pretty well as it goes…. past experience. Always tread cautious…. didn’t take long for the hysterics.

It’s not your pointing out errors that make your responses violent; it’s your ad hominems. Faulty logic, Amin: straw man argument.

““Does anyone else find it significant that he WON’T answer?”

Oh you were in with this one straight away… why?’

How does this imply my motives? Again, unjustified. I guess it’s fun to make things up.

‘“The religious mindset does this to people, i.e. makes a virtue out of
not-thinking-for-yourself.”

“…within the parameters of your agenda,”’

All of this was posted AFTER you told me I’m playing games, not before.

You are a liar, Amin. And only cowards don’t admit their mistakes.

Use of the word VIOLENT… when I point to an illogical fallacy to some.

“Does anyone else find it significant that he WON’T answer?”

Oh you were in with this one straight away… why?

“The religious mindset does this to people, i.e. makes a virtue out of
not-thinking-for-yourself.”

Your question with the hypothetical situation… I simply refuse to answer. To me it is unanswerable.

Telling me that I’m ‘playing games’ is attacking ME, not my motives. Why don’t you try owning up, instead of evading? And how do you presume to know my motives, anyway? You’ve made up something about me, then told me off for what you made up.

The question is VERY simple. It’s printed clearly in black and white. Why don’t you just answer it?

That is not attacking you .. but your motives.

And I don’t get your question. Re-phrase & ask it again …. else I cannot answer that.

what are the circumstances under which you would even begin to consider that the Koran isn’t a message from God, absolutely true (within the realm of poetic license), etc.?

What does this even mean….. I cannot even begin to answer this.

—–

It seems to me from your tone, and the violence of your repeated ad hominems (no doubt I’m going to get one too, just for pointing them out), that there are no such circumstances, that you have (along with many Muslims, and members of other religions) sacrificed your critical faculties in favour of the comfort of believing ‘no matter what’.

uh … “violence of your repeated ad hominems”

And why is pointing that out “Violent”…. a careful choice of the word. If people start making personal attacks…. rather than concentrate on your views…. what are you meant to do?

Even worse is falsifying what you say or drawing conclusions that suit their prejudices rather than from what you’ve actually said.

End the debate…. and I point to that… simple. Where is “violence” – In all that…

… see, that to me shows prejudice. A Muslim and Violent

” that there are no such circumstances, that you have (along with many Muslims, and members of other religions) sacrificed your critical faculties in favour of the comfort of believing ‘no matter what’.”

But why are my personal beliefs in question…. and what do they have to do with the above? You don’t know me or my beliefs… yet why the repeated questioning on that subject… what is it that you are really after?

The religious mindset does this to people, i.e. makes a virtue out of not-thinking-for-yourself.

If you say so… your view. And?

Please note that I haven’t made an ad hominem to you: I merely comment on how you come across. Perhaps I shoulld also note that, unlike some of your critics, you seem well informed and, within the parameters of your agenda, fairly intelligent.

No, you haven’t insulted me in any way shape or form… so why point that out preemptively?

Why thank you for the compliments…

———–

The article was about so called Quranic contradictions…. not only was the word contradiction used wrongly… the article was borrowed from Christian apologetics/hate monger [whichever view you take]… under the guise of “Atheism/Secularism/Agnosticism” … that I found very suspect.

I’ll repeat the 1st question:

Let us suppose, for example, that Muslim’s all over the world united in an effort to deprive women of their rights; that is, to explicitly denounce any personal autonomy, and to induce horrible, disgusting punishments for the slightest violation of whatever rules the male Muslims considered to be legitimate inferences from the Koran and Hadith.

In this situation, would it be permissible to protest, to make cartoons like the one made by the 17 year old, to say that Islam, insofar as it provided a theological or political basis for the rules enforced as described above, was destructive, or oppressive, or unjust, or evil?

Why won’t you answer? You keep attacking me for no reason (“Don’t play games”; “You already got your mind made up… irrespective to what I say”), but you consistently fail to respond to my query.

And how did you come to this? And which issue are you after.

If you want it in another way, then … I don’t get your question.

Answer to what … exactly. Ask me an answerable question… I’ll answer.

Don’t play games.

Does anyone else find it significant that he WON’T answer?