Alarming news from Kingston, Surrey:
"Kill a Qadiyyani and doors to heaven will be open for you"
A police investigation was launched last month, after police saw leaflets being handed out calling on Muslims to murder Qadiyanis, a derogatory term for Ahmadiyya Muslims, who are an evangelical sect of Islam.
It is believed that the literature is linked to a terrorist attack in May, in which 92 worshippers were murdered by Taliban militants in Pakistan, where the government officially regards Ahmadiyya Islam as blasphemy.
Having made no arrests in connection with the incident, Kingston police are appealing who may have seen the people handing out inflammatory literature outside the Jane Norman store in Clarence Street.
A teenage Ahmadiyya girl, who did not want to be named, said she was “shaken and stirred” after being handed a leaflet written in Urdu saying “Kill a Qadiyyani and doors to heaven will be open for you”.
She said: “I was coming back from shopping and a guy handed me the leaflet. While I read it he asked me to come back. I told him I was an Ahmadi girl and he demanded I return the leaflet, but I refused.
“He was about 22 or 23 years old and had a long beard.”
A spokesman for Kingston police confirmed there was an ongoing investigation.
He said: “On July 6, we received a report regarding the distribution of literature related to the Ahmadiyya Muslim faith that was deemed offensive.”
90 Comments
Kill a Qadiani and the gates of prison should open for you if not the death penalty.
Incite others to kill a Qadiani and the gates of prison should open for you too.
I hope and pray those gates open soon for this creep handing out these leaflets.
Some Sunni Muslims who take their sense of right and wrong, halal and haram from their religious texts and leaders may well think of this as their holy duty to Allah.
It isn’t merely hypothetical calls for murder but real murdering going on too:
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/local/20100825
Posted on Wed, Aug. 25, 2010
U.S. citizen slain over his religion in his native Pakistan
By David O’Reilly
Inquirer Staff Writer
When Habib Peer closed his Germantown newsstand last year and moved back to Pakistan, his passport made no note of his religion.
Since 1990 he had been a resident and citizen of the United States, where being an Ahmadiyya Muslim is no offense. But in his homeland, Peer’s faith made him a target, his family said.
On Thursday, as he drove with a young nephew through the southern city of Sanghar, two motorbikes approached his car. One of the masked drivers fired a handgun twice through the open window, instantly killing the 60-year-old Peer.
His nephew, 13, survived to describe the assassination. “That’s just how [the boy's] father died,” recalled Mujeeb Chaudhary, Peer’s brother-in-law and a Philadelphia pharmacist.
“It was a targeted killing, only because of his religion.”
Four years earlier, Peer’s brother, Pasha, a physician who cared for the poor of Sanghar, was shot twice in the head as he left his clinic one evening. His killer ran off and was never found.
Widowed the year his brother died, Peer had moved back to Pakistan to care for Pasha’s widow, whom he married, and to help raise his brother’s children.
Ahmadis follow the Indian mystic Mirza Gulam Ahmad, who in 1887 announced that he was the messiah, or Mahdi, predicted in early Islamic writings as one who would purify Islam near the end of time.
Nearly all Muslims view Ahmad as a heretic, and his followers as inauthentic Muslims. Although tolerated in some Muslim nations, they are especially disdained in Pakistan, whose constitution and passports identify Ahmadis as non-Muslim.
That nation’s four million Ahmadis are forbidden by law to publicly practice their religion, and they can be jailed for blasphemy if they greet Sunni or Shiite Muslims with the traditional “salaam alaykum” or wear Muslim garb.
Mainstream mullahs and imams denounce Ahmadis, with some blaming their presence for the floods ravaging Pakistan. “Some [leaders] even tell their people it is their duty to kill us,” said Chaudhary, who came to the United States in 1972 and is president of the 450-member Philadelphia-area Ahmadiyya community.
The failure of the Pakistani government to suppress such virulent talk, he said, is tantamount to “state-sponsored terrorism.”
Chaudhary added, “The authorities made very little effort for Pasha, and they will do the same for Habib.”
Nadeem Kiani, press attache at the Pakistani embassy in Washington, denied on Tuesday that his government fosters a climate of hostility toward religious minorities, including Ahmadis.
“Yes, they are considered a religious minority,” he said, “but they have complete protection and all the constitutional rights.”
Kiani said he was not familiar with Peer’s murder, but said “if any person is murdered, there are legal ways for the family to prosecute the person accused,” although “these can take time.”
Nicole Thompson, a spokeswoman for the State Department, said Tuesday that the Obama administration was “in constant engagement with the government of Pakistan on issues of religious freedom.”
Teresita Schaffer, former U.S. ambassador to Sri Lanka, said Tuesday that the Ahmadiyya community’s cause “is far down on [the State Department's] list,” though recent violence against Ahmadis is among the worst that nation has seen since its founding in the 1940s.
Schaffer cited the May grenade and assault-weapon attacks by the Pakistani Taliban on two Ahmadi mosques in Lahore that left 78 worshippers dead and dozens severely wounded.
Ahmadis, she said, “are a very controversial part of the community. . . . The people willing to raise their voices in their defense are few.”
In 2002, the House of Representatives issued a bipartisan resolution calling on Pakistan to repeal the second amendment of its constitution, declaring Ahmadis non-Muslim, and its blasphemy laws.
Since then, the Pakistani government has only toughened its blasphemy laws, Chaudhary said.
On Friday, the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan released a statement expressing dismay over Peer’s murder and that of another Ahmadi in Karachi earlier in the week.
The commission wrote that it also was concerned by reports of denial of shelter to Ahmadis displaced by massive floods in south Punjab.
Although some Muslims are upset by the resistance to a proposed Islamic cultural center near Ground Zero, Chaudhary said he welcomed such debate as “proof of America’s freedom of speech and freedom to practice religion.”
In March, he said, the Philadelphia-area Ahmadi community plans to break ground for a new mosque, with dome and minaret, on West Glenwood Avenue near Temple University. The plan, he said, has encountered no hostility from the neighborhood.
Chaudhary said he was delighted when an employee in the city zoning office asked him, “When will you have your jumma prayers?” – Friday services.
“Here it is easy to take for granted,” he said, “but this is the greatness of America.”
See this Sunni forum where 90% vote to call Shiites and Ahmadis heretics and see violent incitements to murder quoted from hadith:
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?58764-Shia-and-Ahmadi-heretics-mentioned-in-hadith-and-by-early-scholars
“There will be, at the end of the time, people who are called Rawafid (rejecters). They will reject Islam and spit it out. Thus, KILL THEM for they are polytheist.”
-Similiar Hadith also in Sahih Bukhari
Narrated ‘Ali:
No doubt I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, where-ever you find them, kill them, for who-ever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.”
Sahih Bukhari , Volume 9, Book 84, Number 64:
In the last days of this world there will appear some young foolish people who will use (in their claim) the best speech of all people (i.e. the Qur’an) and they will abandon Islam as an arrow going through the game. Their belief will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have practically no belief), so wherever you meet them, kill them, for he who kills them shall get a reward on the Day of Resurrection.”
————————————
Here a top Pakistani Sunni Muslim scholar who is featured on Indias top Sunni news channel “Peace TV” calls for murdering Ahmadis as per Islamic teachings:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRywfRwrTWA
….then the parliament decided that they (Ahmedis) are non-Muslims. But this decision is incomplete! Please note it down. I am admitting for the first time that Ahmediyyat has not been harmed at all by declaring them non-muslims. It is spreading and flourishing as ever before – deepening its root in our society. The entire western world is also patronizing them. However, even in the country they could have been rooted out ONLY if the apostates / renegades would have been KILLED. There is “capital punishment” for the apostates in Islam.
————————————————–
Just as back in the Middle Ages Catholics were butchering heretical protestants Sunni Muslims think it is Allahs wish that they butcher anyone heretical in their eyes.
This type of unreformed Medieval bullshit is ruling the roost in Pakistan and being imported by fanatical Muslims into the UK too.
Dr Israr Ahmad was not a moderate, he was a hardliner.
In the Indian sub-continent most of the anti-Ahmadiyya feelings emanate from the legacy of Maulana Mawdudi and his so called Jamaat e Islam.
In the Indian sub-continent most of the anti-everyone and everything feelings emanate from the legacy of Maulana Mawdudi and his so called Jamaat e Islam.
Under Pakistani law, Ahmadis may not call themselves Muslims and may not refer to their places of worship as “mosques”. Orthodox Muslims applying for a passport must sign a statement deriding Ahmad as an “imposter”. These same Pakistanis start to cry “civil rights” when a burkha ban is proposed in western countries
There are times when politeness is the wrong prescription, and this is one
i read the following article on a blog – it holds true
Dear Pakistan:
You are seen as badly behaved children, unable to function as a normal society. We cannot take people who make such laws seriously. You’re a joke. We consider you to be mentally handicapped, and violent as well.
We don’t interact with you out of respect. We interact with you because you are a problem, like having a dangerous pest in your basement.
And the most important message I send you is this: we learn about Islam not from western commentators, but by what happens in Muslim majority societies. And what we learn is the truth.
“A teenage Ahmadiyya girl, who did not want to be named, said she was “shaken and stirred” after being handed a leaflet written in Urdu”
I believe her name was “Bond…. Jahan Bond”
On the Surrey Comet’s website they were sent the following letter:
” I would like to clarify a few items that appear to have been written without full facts.
“I refer to Page 7 of the Kingston Guardian of August 8, 2002, entitled Golden Moment’, where it refers to members of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Association, as being Muslims.
“The whole Islamic Community do not recognise the Ahmadis (or Qadiyanis) as Muslims. … It is an insult to Muslims that the Ahmadi’s are referred to as Muslims. ”
http://www.surreycomet.co.uk/archive/2002/08/21/Local+London+Archive/6305195.Members_of_association_are_not_classed_as_Muslim/
Fortunately, the paper took this as reason to report on these tensions in the Muslim community for themselves, allowing readers to see the other side of the picture:
” A small story in the Comet about the local Jubilee celebrations of a group called the Ahmadiyya Muslim Association seemed innocuous enough.
“But the article provoked one reader to write in and say that the Ahmadi group were not in fact Muslims at all, making me sufficiently curious to want to find out more about this association. ”
http://www.surreycomet.co.uk/archive/2002/10/04/Local+London+Archive/6294756.They_built_London_s_first_mosque/
Some more articles on their website include the following:
http://www.surreycomet.co.uk/news/8203219.Thousands_gather_to_mourn_terrorist_attack_victims/
http://www.surreycomet.co.uk/archive/2010/07/06/news_wimbledon/8257475.Politician_shows_support_for_Morden_mosque/
Calling for the unjustified murder of innocents is abominable, as is calling oneself a Prophet after the demise of the Final Messenger of God, Muhammed (may the Peace & Blessings of Allah be upon him). Mirza Gulam Ahmed founder of Qadianisam, the clown of Qadian, the stooge, was such a false claimant who was exposed during his life time, as he was even before his creation, because the Final Messenger Muhammed (pbuh) said their would come after many liars who claim prophethood. As most charlatons do, he left a rich legacy of documented false prophecies that all fell flat on their faces, the irony is that he himself claimed “To judge my truthfulness of lies there is no better test than my prophecies” [Roohany Khazan p288] God Almighty says, “Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.” [Al-Qur'an 33:40]
Quick synopsis of why the Ahmediyya are just as much Muslim as are the Nation of Islam…truth is niether are Muslim, they can do and say they please but this won’t change the facts…ahhhhh the Qur’an & Sunnah, so difficult to break, so difficult to manipulate but very easy to preserve till the End of Days.
@Yasin:
“Calling for the unjustified murder of innocents is abominable” but since Ahmadis are not innocent according to you owning to their beliefs so this call for murder is justified? Is that what you are saying?
Come on Johnny behave yourself, my statement is finite not open. Ahmadis as upsetting as their belief may be are human beings first, killing human beings unjustly is abominable…is that better??? We will let God be their judge…as he will be your…hehehehe
“killing human beings unjustly is abominable”
There you go again being cowly. Is killing of Ahmadis owning to their beliefs as they stand unjust?
Johnny stop being a knobby please…’Is killing of Ahmadis owning to their beliefs as they stand unjust?’ Yes it is unjust, as is unleashing war and terror on innocents, killing civilians with drone attacks and phosphorus bombs…there is no justification for killing or huting innocent people..Qadiani or not, is that clear now. FYI though the founder did die of a vicious bout of dihorrea, with witness statements claiming that there was muck oozing from many of his orifices, not a very fitting end for a ‘Prophet’ again just a fact…
Yasin is on his best behaviour here. Yes killing Qadiyanis (use the term of abuse) is “unjust” nudge nudge wink wink. Curse them to burn in hell, slag off their founder sure but killing I can’t admit to in a public forum.
But the way the Quran and Sunnah are being preserved until the end of days is by killing heretics. Certainly the end is shared with murderers but in polite company the means is disavowed.
Somebody is a very confused muslim here:
- First of all, killing ANYBODY is the highest form of crime in the Quran.
- Even HARRASSING people of any other religion, is also a major crime in Islam
- Anybody who believes in Quran and Shahadat (one Allah & Mohammad) is a MUSLIM, that includes Ahmadiyyas.
So, what’s the problem here ? Harrassing Ahmadiyyas?
That must be ABSOLUTE Haraam.
Kgazi
You are not being factual. Mohammad is the final prophet and more traditional Islam considers sects that have prophets after Mohammad to be heresy. Of course you could view asylum claims from this group or Bhai and see others do not conform to your views. It would be nice if people would respect each other, but this is not the case.
Ahmadiyyas may have a special religious leader, but their prophet is none other than Mohammed, and the religion is Islam. “Ahmadi emphasis lay in the belief that Islam is the final law for humanity as revealed to Muhammad and the necessity of restoring to it its true essence and pristine form, which had been lost through the centuries.”
There is nothing wrong with ANY religion, but it is hostile political propaganda, created by bigots, that gives religions the negative hype.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya
Indonesia: Religious Affairs minister wants Ahmadis banned
http://www.speroforum.com/a/39101/Indonesia—Religious-Affairs-minister-wants-Ahmadis-banned
Indonesia the moderate…
Allah commnded in the Holy Quran “La Ikraha Deen” If Allah says that there is no complusion in religion, no hadith can change Allah’s command. Since this verse is in Sura Al Baqarah, it nullifies any previous occassions before it because these where some of the last verses revealed to our Holy Prophet. As far as prophethood is concerned there is no Law Bearing prophet after Muhammad (saws)but one coming under his mantle with no new law is possible. Hazrat aisha (ra) said “do not say that Muhammad is the last prophet but that he is the Seal of the Prophets” O’ you murders of innocent people how will it be when youstand before Allah and our Holy Prophet Muhammad and he denies youfor what you are doing?. I Thank You for causing me to find these real Muslims in ourIslamic Community.
Indonesia: Religious Affairs *minister* wants Ahmadis banned, probably because his political ambitions over-rides his lack of theological knowledge. His ignorance tells him if he bans ahmadiyyas, he will win the next election. That story is all too common worldwide.
Ahmadi Muslim Moto “Love for All Hatred for None”…..Islam teaches love and peace not hate and kill. Killing people to go to heaven is a bunch of BULL CRAP. Muslim’s from other sects ruin the name of ISLAM. If anyone wants to learn about true Islam and what muslims really offer then research on Ahmadiyyat. Unfortunately these few so called muslims who claim they are doing the right things are opening the doors to hell for themselves. No wonder people call you terrorists because killing is a terrorist act and no where in Islam does it say to kill. Educate yourselves learn the pure and peaceful meaning of Islam “Ahmadiyyat”.
The definition of present day Sunni/Shiite Muslims in Pakistan.
Have as many girl friends, you are good modern Muslim.
1) Kill every one call yourself Muslim
2) Spread hatred you are a good Muslim.
3) Take bribe on every step call yourself a true Muslim.
4) Drink Alcohol as much as you can you are good Muslim.
5) Don’t give rights to your wife and beat them daily, you are a good Muslim
6) Never support an orphan you are a good Muslim.
7) Take your country’s money from its people you are a good Muslim.
9) I do everything which my religion does not permit me no problem, you are still good Muslim.
10) Your elder were against Pakistan separation, no problem, you are a true Pakistani Muslim.
11) Do a suicide bombing in Mosque , you go to haven, you are true good Muslim
12) You don’t read Quran with its meaning and pray regularly, you are good Muslim.
An Ahmadie definition in today’s Pakistan Muslim Society.
You believe in non violence, but our Mullah doesn’t. Shut up you are Non Muslim.
1) You believe in Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), but we do not agree with you, you are Non Muslim.
2) You are peace loving law abiding Pakistan, but we don’t trust you, you are Non Muslim.
3) You call you prayer place Mosque, but we don’t like this, you are Non Muslim.
4) You believe in Holy Quran which was revealed to Holy Prophet we, don’t agree with you. You are NON MUSLIM.
5) You are true Pakistani, but we don’t agree with you. You are non Muslim.
6) You believe in death of Jesus, we don’t, so you are Non Muslim.
7) Your Doctor Abdus Salam was Pakistani, but we don’t, you are Non Muslim.
9) In short you may follow the TRUE Steps Holy Prophet, we don’t believe you, you are Non Muslim.
If this is the definition of today’s Pakistani Muslim. I am happy to be not one of them. I am An Ahmadie who believes in the death of Jesus (PBUH), and believe Holy prophet as a last prophet. Respect everyone, I love my country. I am An Ahmadie. I am Ahmadie Muslim, who believes in Holy Prophet, I don’t care of rest of this Full of Hatred Mullah. I am an Ahmadie.
Ahmadie – your comments above are precisely what is wrong with the Ahmadi mentality. Your strong sense of victim hood leads you to branding all other sects (e.g. Sunni & Shia) as being bad and corrupted.
As a Sunni I am against Ahmadis being persecuted and I will defend your right to freedom of religion. Please don’t generalise and put everybody in the same box.
There are good and bad people in every sect including Ahmadis.
Raziq- Of course we have to generalise and put everyone in the same category. Name one Ahmadi who quotes “Kill a Sunni or Shiat and doors will open to heaven”….thats what Mulla’s teach and thats hatred…….there is no Ahmadi who beleives in that. In fact All of you generalize us and attack us. Of course there are good and bad in all sects but we definately have not created a law such as it is in Pakistan to kill Ahmadi’s if you see one…we definately would not do that with Sunni’s or Shiat’s or any other sect. I am happy to hear that you are against Ahmadi’s being attacked and we deserve freedom….and with that mind set you should spread the word that this cruelty against Ahmadi’s and such laws of hatred and killing should be stopped. Humanity/Insaaniyat all the way!!!!
If you are a regular reader of this blog you will see that we have been speaking out against all sorts of extremism, violence, Islamism, Mullahism etc.
Although I don’t agree with Ahmadi beliefs and tactics, I will still defend their rights.
I agree the Pakistani consitution discriminates against Ahmadis but we don’t have the power to change that. Whenever we hear about any group being persecuted we blog against it and try to raise awareness of the issue.
Raziq,
If you believe this is injustice with Ahmadies in Pakistan. Then why don’t raise voice this openly?
Now you realize, you didn’t like my generalizing the Sunni and Shiite , but when all our the Pakistan especially all our in Punjab under the protection of Punjab government and Ohkaf department they put banners every major street and main roads to Kill Ahmadie/Qadiani they are enemy of Islam and Holy Prophet. Who gave them right to do that. Answer me 2 simple question questions.
1) Do you follow the true Islam of Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) of this radical Mullah?
2) The total world population of the world is almost 7 Billion. Muslim population is approximately 1.5 Billions including Ahmadies, (you and Pakistan Mullah like this or not we are Muslim who believe in Holy Prophet). Rest 5.5 Billions don’t believe in Islam and the founder of Islam, that doesn’t mean Islam is bad religion or Holy Prophet (PBUH) is not the right Prophet. The ways outside Muslim world they insult Islam at its founder do you think it make any difference to Muslim? Islam is the best of the best religion and Holy Prophet is the Best Human on the face of this world, no other human can come close to His Status.
Why don’t you stop hatred in Pakistan, look every sect is claiming Kafir to other, we are the only peace loving community who never say anything against any one, but everyone try to kill us.
May 28th. 2010 2 Ahmadiyya Mosque in Lahore were attacked by Pakistani Taliban’s , what was the reaction of government on that for 2-3 hours there was firing going in the mosque and Police came after 2 hours, in Gari Shahu police station is only few 100 yards away from our mosque. More than 100 people were dead in 3 hours and 150 were injured. What was the reaction of Ahmadiyya community? They simply submitted their compliant in front of Allah our Master (Now results are in front of you). If the same thing would have happened with Sunni and Shiite community, I can guaranty you, within 24 hours, they would have killed hundreds of other people in this time and the burning of properties and numbers of injured people is beyond our expectation.
Look what happened in Pakistan in this Holy month of Ramand, Yai Barkatoon wala Mahina hai kujach to khuda koof karoo. Khuda kai liyai Band Karo yai Nafratain or Apnay Rasool ki ferma Berdri Karoo maat chaloo in jutaih Mullah kai pechai, yai shatian kee terha tumain choor jaigaa hamisha kee terha.
Love for All. Hatred for None is our Slogan follow this and stop this hatred.
Ahmadie – I don’t care what you believe. Even if you worship donkeys I would still defend your right to freedom of worship.
As a blog site we have been trying raise awareness about Ahmadi persecution. For example see our previous articles:
http://www.spittoon.org/archives/6730
http://www.spittoon.org/archives/4076
http://www.spittoon.org/archives/7750
We are not based in Pakistan. So as a blog site what else do you think we should be doing?
Remember we are an internet site and not a human rights group.
I am glad to see you are doing some thing positive, why don’t you stop these hatred thing against Ahmadies in England. What is the motive of all this. Don’t we have enugh problems.
I read your commets about Ahmadies and I can tell from your language how much you are supporting Ahmadies. If you know our community then you never use these inappropriate words.
Hello Parties, (Raziq and Ahmadie,)
I read with interest your comments. The Major dispute between Ahmadie and Other Muslims is that why ahmadie accepted claim of a new Prophet. My question to Muslims of the whole World is, when somebody claims that He talks with Almighty God….The question is who is the witness. No one. …Muslims should call God and ask Him, did He talk with Mirza Ghulam Ahmad…He will tell them Himself, whether He talks with the Claiment or not. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad swears by God, that God talks with him regularly. Should we accept his Claim or wait for the answer from God ?
If Muslims believe in Holy Quran (which I am doubtful), why not follow Quran. Quran claims, “And whoso obeys Allah and THIS Messenger (Muhammad, pbuh), shall be among those on whom Allah has bestowed His Blessings, namely, the Prophets, the Truthful, the Martyrs,and the Righteous. And excellent companions are these.” (4:69) This clearly says, that If you follow the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), you can be elevated to the status of a Prophet or a Truthful or a Martyr or a Righteous. The restriction being that you have to follow Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Indirectly this means that This Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is actually a Prophet maker, Truthful maker, Martyr maker and Righteous maker. This Quranic statement clearly, nullifies the claim of Muslims, that No Prophet can come after, Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Actually, reverse is true, every PERFECT follower of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) can attain status of Prophet. This status is a blessing from God for perfectly following Prophet Muhammad(PBUH). All those Muslim Groups, which preach, No Prophet after Muhammad (PBUH), are non believers of Quran. These muslims, derive their wrong meaning from the Quranic Statement ” Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but He is the Messenger of Allah and Khatim of the Prophets, and Allah has the full knowledge of all things” (2:40)
This Quranic statement is very clear, and a symbolical translation is “Muhammad is not the Father of any of your men, but He is Messenger of Allah and Khatim (FATHER) of all the Prophets, and Allah has the full knowledge of all things” I have used “Father” as meaning of KHATIM, to demonstrate correct grammatical construction of this statement. Actually, KHATIM means “Best of All”. This further clarifies that Prophet Muhammad has been given this Status, that He is Powerful Enough Spiritually, to generate spiritual son’s, having status of a Prophet, Truthful, Martyr or Righteous. In the light of these two verses of Quran, no one can reject a claimant of Prohethood, while the claimant is also Perfect follower of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Any claimant of Prophethood, who is not follower of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is not supported by the Quran, so can be rejected, without any consideration.
Those who claim, that no Prophet can come, disgrace the status of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), indirectly, they say that Spritual Powers of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) are so week that no one can attain status of Prophethood by following His Teachings. Actually, this meaning is propagated by Enemy of Islam, and are adopted by the Illiterate muslims. Quran says at several places, those who do not follow their Prophets, they are ultimately, destroyed by the God Almighty and replaced by those who follow the Prophets. The current status of muslims appears very similar, they disgraced their Prophet Muhammad, who was given the status of Khatim of Prophets or Seal of the Prophets, if they do not change or accept the correct teachings, they will be replaced by Believers of Prophet Muhammad, whose teachings are to continue till end of this life cycle.
My advice to the muslims is to follow the Quran and Prophet of Islam perfectly and completely. Read the warnings given by the Quran, and be ready, the time appears to be very near, for the action of God Amighty.
Muslims have already been made disgraceful beggars and morally corupt humans, in this world, by the God Almighty, why, because they disobey Allah and His Prophet.
Allah and Quran says, “YOU KILL NOT THE LIFE,WHICH ALLAH HAS MADE SACRED…”. (6:151) Muslims say, Allah, YOU ARE WRONG, “WE HAVE TO KILL” AND THEY PLACE BIG SIGNBOARDS ” KILL, KILL, KILL,”…..KILL SHIA, KILL AHAMDIE, KILL INFIDELS…….KILL KILL KILL….KILL AMERICAN…..KILL, KILL……” Why God should forgive, these non believers, SO CALLED MUSLIMS ?
If I am wrong, please correct me, Oh Muslims of the world. Bring references from Quran, in your support.
Noya- There is of course only one Prophet which is Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)…we do not believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is a Prophet….he is the Imam Mehdhi which according to you guys also had to come by now but has not yet right???? My question is why didn’t your Imam Mehdhi come in this past century when was his time to come or when will he come???
Noya,
I read your article with great interest, JazakAllah. Thing is when people try to impose their own ideiolgy on other people and then they expect them to follow them thats wrong. We and Ahmadie never ever said nor Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad ever claimed that he is a prophet and whit this arrival he sits on the Holy Prophet Muhammad’s (PBUH) place, no never. He only claims him the Immam or the mahdi the messiah of the age, hwo advent was fortold by God Almighty Allah and over beloved prophet Muhmmad (PBUH). All these peoplems started by Mulanh Madoowdi type people who misinterprated the saying of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sb, just like when western word misinterprated thng from Quran and tell the westerns that Quran say Kill every other person who don’t acept Isalm and things like that. Thing is people have to open their eyes and don’t follow Miraza Ghulam Ahmad Sb blind folded. First do the full research about what he is saying is true or not (with out any thing against him in their heart) if his words conflicts with Quran. Don’t follow him. If he is right then join him no force on you, but please out of any misguidedness, don’t let down the teaching of Quran and saying of Allah’s prophet.
Gof bless you.
“We and Ahmadie never ever said nor Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad ever claimed that he is a prophet”.
Ahmadie – This is not true. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad does claim to be a prophet and says so in many of his books. To give you one example in his book Tadhkiratush Shahadatain he says:
‘God almighty said to me; O Ahmad, thou has been exalted as a prophet. This means you are named Ahmad, though your own name is Ghulam Ahmad, similarly you also deserve the title of prophet because Ahmad is a Prophet and his prophethood cannot be separated from him’. (p.g 43)
Also read his book: ‘A misunderstanding removed’ if you are not sure about his claims to prophethood.
His claim of Prophet hood is not with new book or new religion. He came to rejuvinate Islam and bring back the glory of Islam so muslim who felt in thise days that islam is in trouble and there is no one who can save this sinking boat. Look at the news papers, Muslim Scholers and Mullahs unable to stop the christian priest flood who, they claim the convert the entire India subcontinent and convert them in to christanity. Who stood up first in front of christian priest to defend Islam and the Holy Founder of Islam.
Ziryab, you did exactly the same thing like other hatred full of people are doing in Pakistan. His claim is Zilih Nabi the one who is under to guidance of Holy Prophet and according to the Quran. You accpet it or not this is not all up to you. He never brought any this out of Islam and he never taught us to any thing against Islam. As an Ahmadie, from the depth of our hart believe in Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) as last prophet, but we can’t accpet that God don’t speak with His beloved prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and in later days we have to ask for help to other religion prophet, the status of our prophet Muhamad (PBUH) is the most highest then all prophet of Allah.
May Allah help you more to under stand Islam under the guidance of Holy Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) not the Jihadi Mullah of Pakistan for whome everything is theway to get popularity and make t business, irrespectable to what damaged they are doing to Islam. Islam is more damaged by Muslim’s then any other religion.
We as Ahmadie rasing voice big time against the planning of this priest who inspired people to burn the Holy Quran on 9/11 day as will will bring more problem in the world. Any where anyone speak anything against Islam or the founder of Islam we are there to protest this action.
please let me know that jews had the right to make state of israel in palestine because
1)God gave them this land or
2)UN General Assembly allowed them to declare state of Israel in Plaestine
If you can pinpoint the justification then we’ll be able to judge any comments about Israel ,that are being discussed so passionately.
With reference to the claim of the Founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement, wouldn’t it be more rational to examine the original prophecy itself, before we examine its fulfillment? The prophecy of the advent of a latter reformer, whom the Holy Prophet refers to as Masih / Esa / Ibn Maryam should best be examined with reference to the actual words of the prophecy. Let us examine two very relevant sayings of the Prophet regarding the Promised Messiah:
1. Transliteration: “…fa yarghabu nabiyyullaahi eesa wa as’haabuhu ilallaahi ta’aala…” (Sahih Muslim)
Translation: Thus Esa the prophet of Allah alongwith his companions would turn to Allah the Exalted.
2. Transliteration: “…imaamukum minkum…” (Sahih Bukhari)
Translation: (the Promised Messiah) would be your Imam from amongst yourselves (the Ummah).
The first saying clearly defines the Promised Messiah as “nabiyyullah” which means “prophet of God”. The second saying categorizes him as “someone from among the Ummah”, for which there is an alternative brief term “Ummati”. Put both sayings of the Holy Prophet together, and what you get is an “Ummati Nabi” or “Follower Prophet”.
Whether one awaits the fulfillment of the prophecy about the Promised Messiah in the person of the very same Esa (Jesus of Nazareth) who lived six centuries prior to Muhammad the Messenger of God, or one interprets its fulfillment through the advent of someone appearing in the spirit of Esa (Jesus); in either case the status of the Promised Messiah, whoever he may be, as determined by the Holy Prophet himself, would have to be that of an “Ummati Nabi” or “Subservient Non-law bearing Prophet”.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian claimed that the prophecy of the Holy Prophet pertaining to the Promised Messiah had been fulfilled in his person, by the will of God. Ahmad defines the term “nabi” or prophet as: “someone blessed with an abundance of Divine Discourse and to whom knowledge of the unseen is frequently revealed”. It is in this sense that he applies the term “nabi” or prophet to himself. Ahmad of Qadian elaborates his claim of “prophethood” by claiming to be:
1. an “Ummati Nabi” – someone who is simultaneously a follower of the Holy Prophet and a recipient of Divine Revelation.
2. a “Ghair-shaari’ Nabi” or a non-law bearing prophet – a prophet sent not with a new law/book but only to serve and revive the law revealed to an earlier prophet – in this case his leader, mentor and master – Muhammad the Holy Prophet.
3. a “Zilli Nabi”. The term “Zill”, in Arabic means shadow. Just as a shadow does not exist of its own accord, but owes its existence to the real object, a “Zilli Nabi” is not an independent prophet, but owes his spiritual status to the fact that he has immersed himself in the love and obedience of the Holy Prophet, attaining the status of “fana-fir-Rasool” meaning “someone having effaced himself in devotion towards the Holy Prophet.
Interesting. Can you give me an example of a ‘Zilli Nabi’ apart from MGA? any other claimant?
@ Jzero
A “zilli nabi” will succeed a “Khatam-un nabiyyen” only. Since there has been no Khatam-un nabiyyeen other than Muhammad Rasoolullah, it logically follows that there should be no other example of a “zilli nabi” other than one prophesied to appear in the footsteps of Muhammad Rasoolullah.
Regards.
So basically, nobody has ever claimed to be Zilli Nabi apart from MGA? also, can you provide references where it explicitly states that a Zilli Nabi will succeed a khatam-un nabiyyen? Thanks.
oh dear me, what a bunch of irrelevant waffle. look, this is quite simple. we don’t approve of the persecution of ahmadis, ok? however, despite this, we are not obliged to approve of their views, which as we see on the other thread, are not all that pleasant anyway. nonetheless, being bonkers doesn’t mean you ought to be murdered.
b’shalom
bananabrain
@ Jzero
“…..So basically, nobody has ever claimed to be Zilli Nabi apart from MGA?…..”
True, but not the whole truth. The whole truth would be that:
a) nobody has claimed to be Khatam-un nabiyyeen, apart from Muhammad Rasoolullah
b) the kind of prophethood, logically possible after a Khatam-un nabiyyeen, would be a subordinate prophethood, for which the term “zilli nabi” is used. The term “zilli nabi” is actually an explanatory translation for a “follower prophet”. A “follower prophet”, in turn, is someone who is from one aspect a devoted follower of Muhammad, and a recipient of Divine Revelation from another, while both aspects coexist in the same person
c) the Holy Prophet himself prophesied that the foretold Messiah would be a “follower prophet”
d) Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement claimed to be the Promised Messiah, whose had been foretold by Muhammad Rasoolullah. His claim of being a “zilli nabi” cannot be compartmentalized as a claim distinct from his claim of Messiahship. In fact, it is an attribute of his being the Promised Messiah.
“…..can you provide references where it explicitly states that a Zilli Nabi will succeed a khatam-un nabiyyen?…..”
You will not find the term “zilli nabi”, as such, in the Quran or the Hadith. As I said earlier, the term “zilli nabi” is nothing but an explanatory translation of the term “ummati nabi”. And “ummati nabi” is the foretold spiritual status of the Promised Messiah, as granted by Khatam-un Nabiyyeen Muhammad Rasoolullah himself. You may like to go back to the references I’ve quoted earlier:
1: “…Thus Esa the nabiyyullah (prophet of God) alongwith his companions would turn to God the Exalted…” [Sahih Muslim]
2: “…The Promised Messiah would be your Imam from amongst yourselves (i.e. from among the Ummah)…” [Sahih Bukhari]
The first saying clearly defines the Promised Messiah as a “Nabi” which means “prophet”. The second saying categorizes him as “someone from among the Ummah”, for which there is an alternative brief term “Ummati”. If you put both sayings of the Holy Prophet together, what you get is an “Ummati Nabi” or “Follower Prophet”, for which the jargon of Islamic Mysticism offers a synonymous explanatory term – “zilli nabi”.
Regards.
@ bananabrain (September 27, 2010 at 1:39 PM)
“…..we don’t approve of the persecution of ahmadis, ok? however, despite this, we are not obliged to approve of their views…..”
It’s good to hear from you once again. Inspite of the fact that you are indeed not obliged to approve of our views, and we too, are similarly not obliged to approve of your views, yet you have my kindest regards.
Bin Ismail
“You will not find the term “zilli nabi”, as such, in the Quran or the Hadith. ”
I thought so. In Hadith the only term I found was ‘Zill Allah’ and this was used to describe a just and righteous king. ‘Zill Allah’ obviously does not mean Allah.
In your opinion, has there been other ‘follower prophets’ in Islam apart from MGA? If so can you name some? Thanks.
“…has there been other ‘follower prophets’ in Islam apart from MGA…”
I think the pertinent question is how many did Muhammad himself prophecy.
No, that is not my question. I asked a specific question, respond to that. Thanks.
my defence of ahmadis is based on democratic principle, not any fondness for your views – and i don’t seek approval for *my* views from the likes of you.
if you have nothing of value to add to a conversation, you’re also not obliged to add to it.
b’shalom
bananabrain
@ Jzero (September 27, 2010 at 10:34 PM)
“Zill Allah” does not mean Allah – obviously. Equally obvious is the fact that the term “Nabiyyullah”, used by the Holy Prophet for the Promised Messiah [ Sahih Muslim], does indeed mean “Prophet of Allah”.
While, the point that Mubarak pointed out to, may not have been your specific question, but it cannot be overlooked either. The fact remains that a prophecy precedes its fulfillment and the fulfillment should correspond with the prophecy. According to the prophecy issued by the Holy Prophet, the Promised Messiah was indeed destined to be a Follower Prophet. However, with reference to your specific question, in my opinion, the Promised Messiah is the only Reformer to appear after the Holy Prophet, regarding whom the Holy Prophet has used the term “nabiyyullah”.
@ bananabrain (September 28, 2010 at 9:12 AM)
“…..i don’t seek approval for *my* views from the likes of you. if you have nothing of value to add to a conversation, you’re also not obliged to add to it…..”
Nobody is claiming that you are seeking anybody’s approval. However, I hope you realize that in the face of disagreement, what may appear as relevant to one, may well appear to be “nothing of value” to the other.
Regards.
“Nobody is claiming that you are seeking anybody’s approval. However, I hope you realize that in the face of disagreement, what may appear as relevant to one, may well appear to be “nothing of value” to the other.
You yourself have already demonstrated that by your defence of the Ahmadiyya advocacy of a certain anti-semitic bias.
when you said “we too, are similarly not obliged to approve of your views”, this implied that i was, in some sense, seeking your approval, which i wasn’t. i’m not sure i wish to be lectured at egregious length on the concept of “relevance” by someone who can’t even answer nine basic questions without a thick fog of obfuscation, misdirection and doublespeak. i can see from this little exchange that you seem unable to make the most basic point without your rhetorical toolkit. it reminds me of the way that j-witnesses lard their speech with biblical footnotes, as if it actually helps their argument, as opposed to making them sound like those automated voice response systems which, come to think of it, are exactly what are used by organisations that don’t want to answer your question.
“if you want to hear how much we are devoted to peace, please press 1″
“if you want to hear how much we love everyone, please press 2″
“if you want to hear how we don’t hate anyone, please press 3″
“if you want to hear us tie ourselves into knots defending mirza tahir hussain’s use of the protocols of the elders of zion, please press 4″
“to hear these options again, please press *”
b’shalom
bananabrain
I am not overlooking that point. I already know your stance on that. Better if you stick to the questions asked than to make assumptions.
What disappoints me is that the mullahs do not have the guts do the qatal-i-aam of ‘Qadiyanis’ in England. I can feel their frustration!
The guy who is distributing the pamphlets for the ticket to paradise but does not have the guts to do the ‘good’ deed himself.
Well I guess the ever increasing strength of ‘Qadiyanis’ would drive their minds to madness. At this rate, within the next decades, what would the mullah do?
@Raziq
It is surprising to see Mr. Raziq active on this part of the blog.You wrote an article about Ahmadis not being so moderate.Leaving aside the conclusion of the article ,I pointed out some historic mistakes in your article which you claimed to have written after years of research .But you failed to give a reply and abandoned your article .As a pediatrician I know that premature babies should be left on their own.I was expecting that you’ll show the courtesy to reply my humble questions but I was surprised to note that instead of the author’s reply some other persons were active to justify the mistakes of your article.Your kind reply is eagerly awaited.
Bananabrain – Ahmadiyyah is the salvation for Jews, Christians and Muslims. Only by following the Promised Messiah can mankind be saved today. It is not we who say Jews are a cursed people but god himself, so you can’t blame that on us.
You say the Protocols are fake but if what they contain comes true then we have to believe them to be true. We don’t call Muslims disbelivers but if they call us that then they do become disbelivers themselves. Remember if you reject any messenger of god you are out of the fold of Islam – so that is the state of Muslims who reject Hadrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as).
I can guarantee you that within 100years half the world will become Ahmadi Muslims. So you better be careful what you say about us. I do not wish you to incur the wrath of god and the Promised Messiah.
Love for all and hatred for none.
“Love for all and hatred for none.”
How completely bogus.
ahmadiforever:
i’ll take my chances. as captain blackadder once said:
as for the veiled threats, how jolly love-for-all-and-hatred-for-none.
clearly you’ve learned a lot from how the other muslims treat you.
b’shalom
bananabrain
@AhmadiForever (September 29, 2010 at 10:03 AM)
“…..It is not we who say Jews are a cursed people but god himself, so you can’t blame that on us…..”
May I respectfully and most humbly point out that God does not say that Jews are a cursed people. The Bani Israel, according to the Quran, did incur God’s displeasure, on account of certain injustices of theirs, but this does not at all suggest that His displeasure is eternal and encompasses all Jews indiscriminately. God’s displeasure is never an eternal thing. It is always specific. When God says that the Bani Israel were guilty of disobedience towards Moses or of persecuting the prophets who appeared after him or of a calumny against Mary or of attempting to kill Jesus on the Cross, God condemns only those who were either guilty of these acts or endorsed them, not every single Jew and certainly not the entire Jewish Community for ever.
In order to be fair, issues need to examined in their entirety. Let us not forget that God has also said: “O Children of Israel, remember My favour which I bestowed upon you and that I exalted you above all nations.” [Quran 2:47]. In this verse, God reminds the Jews of the days when they had earned God’s favour. The point I’m trying to make is that no community is by-default either eternally blessed or forever cursed.
It is man’s actions that entitle man to God’s favour or curse, regardless of whether he is a Muslim or a non-Muslim. No community, as a whole, is cursed. Individuals, however, regardless of their religious inclination, by pursuing certain forbidden courses of action, may earn the curse of God.
“…..if you reject any messenger of god you are out of the fold of Islam…..”
Not the fold of Islam, the fold of “Eman”, which means Belief, and that too, not in an entire sense. For example, if a Jew does not believe in Jesus and Muhammad, we would have to confine his lack of Eman to Jesus and Muhammad. We obviously would not claim that he does not believe in Moses and David. Hence, the “denial” on the part of someone who does not accept the Promised Messiah, would also have to be limited to the Promised Messiah.
“…..I can guarantee you that within 100years half the world will become Ahmadi Muslims. So you better be careful what you say about us. I do not wish you to incur the wrath of god and the Promised Messiah…..”
It is not for us to guarantee such things in a time-bound way. Yes, we indeed believe that since the Promised Messiah was sent by God, God would grant him victory, but to propose a timetable would not be justifiable. Secondly, may I also point out that while we use phrases such as “..the love of God and His Messenger..”, we do not find it appropriate to say “.. the wrath of God and Muhammad..”or “..the wrath of God and the Promised Messiah..” as you have used. Divine Wrath is something that is ascribed to God alone. It is something confined to the realm of Divinity. Ahmadis certainly do not wish anyone to incur God’s wrath and it would have sufficed to say, “..I do not wish you to incur the wrath of God..”.
Regards
Bin Ismail
AhmadiForever,
Doing ‘takfir’ on other Muslims is another thing you share with extremists. How can you say ‘love for all and hatred for none’ yet say Jews are cursed and other Muslims are disbelivers if they reject Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s claims?
The more I learn about Ahmadis, the more I dislike them.
“if you want to hear a long-winded, theological exposition of byzantine complexity and self-referential authority which explains why we are right and you are wrong, please press 5.”
b’shalom
bananabrain
I have read the comments of Ahmadiforever. Leaving aside the fact that his comments do not represent Ahmadiyya View anyway.He is quoting a prophecy of half the world becoming Ahmadi in the next century ,well this prophecy of half the world becoming Ahmadi in next 100 years does not exist. But the strange thing is that he is using the terms like wrath of Promised Messiah .Well this phrase has never been used in Ahmadiyya Literature , it is against the teacings of the founder of Ahmadiyya Movement. As pseudoname is being used I am not very sure about the validity of this presentation.Right now I cannot say it for sure but this has happened before that some comments from some Ahmadi were given in press and that person did not exist .I would request him to let me know about his real indentity on this mail sultanahmad_90@hotmail.com , if he he has got no objections . I am using my real name and this gentleman or any participant if they wish it, can ask for my further identification by sending me e mail.
Brothers Bin Ismail and Sultan Ahmad,
Assalamu-Alaikum. I do not wish the wrath of God on anybody and I was just warning people to refrain from incurring the wrath of God by attacking the Promised Messiah. However, such people were around in the Promised Messiah’s time and were described as ‘filth’ by God in revelations sent to him. For example see the following revelation:
“Thou holdest a position in My presence of which the world is not aware. Thou art dear to Me like My Oneness and My Unity. Thou art from My Own Water and they are from filth.” http://www.alislam.org/books/tadhkiratush%20shahadatain/tadhshah.html
Why do you think God described them as ‘filth’? Do you think God is happy with people who insult or reject Promised Messiah? Sugar coating our teachings does not help our mission. We must be truthful and not be scared of repeating what Hadrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) received and said. The very same revelation goes onto say:
“I shall condemn him who condemns thee, and shall grant thee blessings that shall remain with thee for ever.” http://www.alislam.org/books/tadhkiratush%20shahadatain/tadhshah.html
So God himself is condemning our opponents in this revelation. People can call themselves Muslims but how can their belief be complete if they are not obeying the words of Holy Prophet (saw) who clearly said the Promised Messiah will be Prophet (Nabiullah)?
The Promised Messiah also warned us from following the ways of the Jews:
“It cannot be denied that both the Holy Quran and the Traditions bestow the epithet ‘Jews’ on some of the Muslims. This is evident from the verse: Those who incurred His displeasure. If some of the Muslims were not going to tread the path of the Jews, Allah would not have taught them this prayer. From the time God commenced sending down His Books it has been observed that whenever He commands a people to refrain from certain acts, as for instance: Thou shalt not commit adultery; Thou shalt not steal or Thou shalt not follow in the ways of the Jews, the prohibition always entails the prophecy that some of the people would commit those sins or crimes. There has been no instance that God had warned a people against a certain transgression and the entire people meticulously abstained from that transgression. Some of them always commit the sin that is forbidden. Take, for example, the fact that Allah had commanded the Jews not to pervert the Torah. But they did become guilty of perversion of the Book.” http://www.alislam.org/books/tadhkiratush%20shahadatain/narrmart.html
Once again, I am not ashamed of any of our teachings. Muslims who reject the Promised Messiah have become like Jews. Believing in the Prophets is one of the conditions of being Muslim. So if someone rejects the Prophets or the Angels or the Holy Book or God cannot be a Muslim. Rejecting any of these things does not mean Iman is weak, it means they are taking themselves out of the fold of Islam.
But the doors of mercy are always open and if people sincerely repent and turn to God and join our Jamaat they will be forgiven. We do not call anybody disbelievers and we always pray for the whole of mankind.
Sultan Ahmad – I am not quoting prophecy of half world becoming Muslim in 100 years, but that is my own estimation. As you know we are the most peaceful group in the world. That is why our motto is:
“Love for all and hatred for none”
Wasalaam.
@Ahmadi forever
I would like to humbly request you to reeducate yourself on some basic ahmadi positions.
First of all declaring people outside the pale of islam has never been an ahmadi tradition. This is the ploy used by those clerics opposed to us especially in Pakistan who declare us outside of Islam and have legalized it by puting it in the Pakistani constitution.
There is no such thing as wrath of the Promised Messiah upon someone. This is a very silly concept never used by MGA. On the other hand MGA uses the following phrases in one of his books:
“I try my best to reform people and if anyone abuses me I do not complain to him. My complaint is made only to God and not to any worldly court. Under all circumstances it is our duty to be sympathetic towards everybody.”
(Siraj-i-Munir, p. 28)
The issue of half the world converting in 100 years has been addressed by bin ismail’s comment (September 29, 2010 at 4:19 PM ) and Sultan Ahmad’s (September 29, 2010)
Brother Mubarak,
Assalamu-Alaikum,
I meant to say that insulting the Promised Messiah may lead to incurring the wrath of God. I know Promised Messiah never cursed anybody.
I am not declaring anybody outside the fold of Islam but those who reject Prophet or Angels or Holy Book need to think what type of Muslim they can be.
Wasalaam.
WTF? – you guys need to decide what you believe! one group of you is anti-Semitic and believes in loopy conspiracy theories, the other curses people threatening them with the wrath of god! put your own house in order before preaching to others you jokers!
I guess this is all part of your ‘love for all’ claptrap!
@James
There is no group of “ahmadi’s cursing anyone else. The opinions of Ahmadiforever are an individual’s opinion and not of a group of “ahmadi’s.
Also, i think it is irrational to say that if someone considers the protocols worthy of mention, that person is an anti-semite.
@AhmadiForever (September 29, 2010 at 6:26 PM)
“…Believing in the Prophets is one of the conditions of being Muslim. So if someone rejects the Prophets or the Angels or the Holy Book or God cannot be a Muslim. Rejecting any of these things does not mean Iman is weak, it means they are taking themselves out of the fold of Islam…”
Let’s consider how the Holy Prophet himself defines “Muslim”. On the occasion of the first census of Madina, the question of how to determine who a Muslim was, came up. The Holy Prophet replied, “Write down for me the names of all those who call themselves “Muslim”.
I’m afraid your understanding of the term “Muslim” needs to be reviewed.
@Mubarak (September 29, 2010 at 7:50 PM)
I fully agree.
@hania aimen
Going through this discussion, I came across an extremely interesting question raised about 5 days back by Hania Aimen (September 24, 2010 at 7:48 PM). Could any of our Jewish participants here, please take the trouble to answer her question.
Looking forward.
Bin Ismail & Co,
In the Quran God says : We did not send any messenger but with the language of his people, so that he might explain to them clearly, then Allah makes whom he pleases err and he guides whom he pleases and he is the mighty the wise.(14:4)
Now keeping the above verse in mind, here is a revelation Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claims to have received from God in English:
“God is coming by his army. He is with you to kill enemy” (Tadhkirah)
Can you please explain why God would reveal a revelation that is grammatically incorrect?
I look forward to your responses.
Still no response to Hania Aimen’s question of September 24, 2010 at 7:48 PM.
@ Jzero
There is no such thing as Bin Ismail & co. Ahmadi’s are participating in their individual capacities. Bin Ismail has give you is opinion and I can give you mine.
With reference to the verse 14:4, the words “the language of his people” need to be understood. All the prophets before Muhammad, were sent to a certain nation/tribe. Muhammad, however was meant as prophet for all mankind. God could have spoken to Muhammad in all languages of the world because all people were his people. God did not because Muhammad was a law-bringing prophet and the Revealed Book obviously had to be monolingual. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, who was a subordinate of Muhammad, was a non-law bringing prophet. Being Muhammad’s subordinate, for him too, the whole of mankind were his people. But since he was not sent with a book, God spoke to him in more than one language, English being one.
now coming to your objection of a revelation being grammatically incorrect.
1)I think the the sentence “God is coming by his army” has nothing gramatically incorrect about it according to 19th century grammar. The word “by” means besides in 19th century lingo. Also, I think the sentence written as “He is with you to kill enemy” should be written as (E)nemy with capital E. This signifying a proper noun meaning The Enemy.
2)Rules of Grammar are not above God. God is above grammatical rules. If Shakespeare and countless others have taken the licence to violate certain man-made rules (which are continuously changing with time anyways) there is no reason why God may not chose to either.
@jewish friends
I am also curious to know your response to the questions raished by Hania Aimen.
@ Ahmadiforever
With regards to your references I would like to clarify something.
While it is understandable that God may use harsh words for someone who vigilantly opposes someone dear to him it is not for us to go around telling people they are such and such. In face these revelations should be used by us to introspect ourselves rather than name-call others. We need to worry about ourselves and how we stack up and make sure we don’t come under the displeasure of God. Rather than worry about other groups and question their faith.
These reference are for us to judge ourseves by and not to judge others by.
Mubarak,
Can you five me some examples of this being correct according to 19th century grammar? Also, as mentioned by another commentator, why are Mirza Ghulam Ahmads opponents described as ‘filth’?
It seems that you are stuck with the grammatical side of the revealed words and seem to have a problem that God’s usage was different from common usage, I think this is a very narrow perspective. However with respect to your love of man-made grammar and your desire for God to follow them, here is an example I found according to Merriam-Webster dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/by)
“His wife was sitting by him.” Which means His wife was sitting besides him.
“God is coming by His army” could also mean, “God is coming by virtue of his Army”
Regarding the word “filth”, In the Quran “falsehood” and “idolatry” are refered to as filth. It is with respect to these characteristics the word “filth” is used.
You have asked many questions and if you don’t find it absurd may I ask you some mysefl.
Why are you so interested only one aspect of this revelation?
also, why have you avoided Hania Aimen’s questions?
Mubarak,
In the Quran God does not describe idolaters as‘filth’. The word ‘Najasun’ means spititually ‘unclean’. However, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s revelation is not directed at idolaters is it? And only according to ‘YOU’ their God’s words, non-Ahmadis believe they are Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s words.
The rules of grammar are there so meaningful sentences can be formed and more importantly, understood. ‘God coming by his Army’ is grammatically incorrect and any native English speaker can confirm this. The only time you can say coming ‘by’ something is if you are talking about means of transportation i.e. coming by car etc (read up on idioms and idiomatic expressions). You can come ‘with’ a person but you cannot come ‘by’ a person. How can anyone take these very badly written so called revelations seriously? We can give our own ‘man-made’ interpretations to them but the fact remains they are still incorrect. We know God is perfect and if something is clearly incorrect then it cannot be from God.
Interestingly, I spoke to one of my Ahmadi friends about Idiomatic expressions and using the word ‘by’ in the way it is used by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. He agreed with me it was totally incorrect to use it that way, not just today but even in Victorian times. When I told him it was apparently a revelation to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad he didn’t believe me. When I showed him the book he was shocked but then started saying it was from God and divine etc.
So either God does not know the English language and made a mistake or Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, not being a native English speaker, made a mistake. I believe it’s the latter.
Regarding Hania Anem’s questions, I believe they were directed to our Jewish friends, so it is up to them to decide if they want to respond or not. Going by the discussion on the other thread I understand if they are reluctant to do so.
Bye.
Jzero – don’t waste any more time with these lot, clearly they just argue for the sake of arguing. Everyone can see they don’t make sense. Like Bananabrain said:
“if you want to hear a long-winded, theological exposition of byzantine complexity and self-referential authority which explains why we are right and you are wrong, please press 5.”
Shalom.
My Fellow Ahmadi Brothers,
Assalamu-Alaikum. Like I said before – I do not wish the wrath of God on anybody and I was just warning people to refrain from incurring the wrath of God by attacking the Promised Messiah. However, such people were around in the Promised Messiah’s time and were described as ‘filth’ by God in revelations sent to him. For example see the following revelation:
“Thou holdest a position in My presence of which the world is not aware. Thou art dear to Me like My Oneness and My Unity. Thou art from My Own Water and they are from filth.” http://www.alislam.org/books/tadhkiratush%20shahadatain/tadhshah.html
Why do you think God described them as ‘filth’? Do you think God is happy with people who insult or reject Promised Messiah? Sugar coating our teachings does not help our mission. We must be truthful and not be scared of repeating what Hadrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) received and said. The very same revelation goes onto say:
“I shall condemn him who condemns thee, and shall grant thee blessings that shall remain with thee for ever.” http://www.alislam.org/books/tadhkiratush%20shahadatain/tadhshah.html
So God himself is condemning our opponents in this revelation. People can call themselves Muslims but how can their belief be complete if they are not obeying the words of Holy Prophet (saw) who clearly said the Promised Messiah will be Prophet (Nabiullah)?
The Promised Messiah also warned us from following the ways of the Jews:
“It cannot be denied that both the Holy Quran and the Traditions bestow the epithet ‘Jews’ on some of the Muslims. This is evident from the verse: Those who incurred His displeasure. If some of the Muslims were not going to tread the path of the Jews, Allah would not have taught them this prayer. From the time God commenced sending down His Books it has been observed that whenever He commands a people to refrain from certain acts, as for instance: Thou shalt not commit adultery; Thou shalt not steal or Thou shalt not follow in the ways of the Jews, the prohibition always entails the prophecy that some of the people would commit those sins or crimes. There has been no instance that God had warned a people against a certain transgression and the entire people meticulously abstained from that transgression. Some of them always commit the sin that is forbidden. Take, for example, the fact that Allah had commanded the Jews not to pervert the Torah. But they did become guilty of perversion of the Book.” http://www.alislam.org/books/tadhkiratush%20shahadatain/narrmart.html
Once again, I am not ashamed of any of our teachings. Muslims who reject the Promised Messiah have become like Jews. Believing in the Prophets is one of the conditions of being Muslim. So if someone rejects the Prophets or the Angels or the Holy Book or God cannot be a Muslim. Rejecting any of these things does not mean Iman is weak, it means they are taking themselves out of the fold of Islam.
But the doors of mercy are always open and if people sincerely repent and turn to God and join our Jamaat they will be forgiven. We do not call anybody disbelievers and we always pray for the whole of mankind.
In my estimation half the world will be Ahmadi within 100 years. As you know we are the most peaceful group in the world. That is why our motto is:
“Love for all and hatred for none”
Wasalaam.
Ahmadi’s, such as above, are clearly deluded and its pointless discussing with them.
@ ahmadi forever
thank you for copy pasting your previous article. So i will take the liberty to copy and paste my response, which are also meant for Jzero.
“@ Ahmadiforever
With regards to your references I would like to clarify something.
While it is understandable that God may use harsh words for someone who vigilantly opposes someone dear to him it is not for us to go around telling people they are such and such. In face these revelations should be used by us to introspect ourselves rather than name-call others. We need to worry about ourselves and how we stack up and make sure we don’t come under the displeasure of God. Rather than worry about other groups and question their faith.
These reference are for us to judge ourseves by and not to judge others by.”
@Jzero
as I restated in my previous comment. ” it is understandable that God may use harsh words for someone who vigilantly opposes someone dear to him”. As you consider MGA not genuine, shall I remind you that the Quran and the Testaments use strong terms as well for those who opposed the prophets, whom I assume you do consider genuine. These harsh terms are used by God I assume to express at certain characteristics and traits not liked by him. That being said, I assure you it is God who judges who may belong to category and not any one of us to judge.
“So either God does not know the English language and made a mistake or Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, not being a native English speaker, made a mistake. I believe it’s the latter.”
I would like to express a different perspective. I do agree God is perfect. I also admit man’s rules are transient and changing. I also believe God is above man-made grammatical rules and if he choses may express himself differently. Under that perspective I think it incorrect to reach the conclusion that it is impossible for God to reveal such a sentence. As I’ve stated in a previous comment, many authors have sometimes overlooked the generally accepted grammar rules, hence we have the term “poetic licence.”
“…. is grammatically incorrect and any native English speaker can confirm this.”
I think the assertion that the revelation under discussion is gramatically incorrect is worth challenging based on the example I quoted from merriam-webster dictionary. The parallel structure of the following 2 sentences is quite evident.
“His wife was sitting by him.” (correct according to merriab-webster)
“God is coming by his army.” (incorrect according to some)
I am assuming here you consider merriam-webster a genuine source of “correct” usage since it is a well-known dictionary. Lets not forget, we should differentiate between uncommon usage and incorrect usage.
I also think your experience your ahmadi friend is quite irrelevent to this discussion.
And thanks for clarifying you are muslim so I don’t address you with the wrong questions.
@Mirza Ghulam Ahmad
“..clearly they just argue for the sake of arguing.”
We are addressing questions put forth to us.
“if you want to hear a long-winded, theological exposition of byzantine complexity and…”
Its too bad these straightforward expositions are too complex for you to handle.
Mubarak,
“His wife was sitting by him” and “God is coming by his Army” are two totally different expressions. However, the the second part of the same revelation “he is with you to kill enemy” is also incorrect. It should be “to kill the enemy” and not “to kill enemy”.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s other English revelations are just as bad. For example:
“I can what I will do.” (Tadhkirah)
“We can what We will do.” (Tadhkirah)
As is evident, terrible English seems to be a key feature of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s English revelations. Like I said before, God is perfect would not make such basic mistakes.
Bye.
Guys this is a strange discussion – but what is clear is that the doctrine of only being Muslim if you accept Mirza my grammar is developing. This makes Ahmadis no different to the folk who say they are not Muslim for not accepting the finality of Prophethood as understood by Sunni and Shia Islam. No need for sympathy for being “takfired” then except for the persecution which is wrong to anyone human irrelevant of the beliefs or grammatical character of them!
@ Jzero
I acknowledge the fact that they are different expressions in that they have different meanings. But you should also acknowledge that they have the same grammatical structure of “[subject] [verb][gerund] [preposition "by"] [object of preposition]“. In both cases “by” can be understood as “with” or “beside”. Again, uncommon usage should be decoupled from incorrect usage.
It’s quite sad that you are depriving God of “poetic license” while allowing famous poets like, say, William Wordsworth the same privilege by letting him write lines such as:
“…my heart with pleasure fills”
while denying God such phrases as:
“I can what I will do”
@ Abid
Despite the fact that your own sentence may require some grammatical improvement, the fact remains that Ahmadi doctrine does not describe a disbeliever in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a non-muslim. Also, I think it would be wiser to understand the finality of prophethood based on the Quran and Hadith rather than Sunni or Shia Islam.
@ Jzero
As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, the correct transcription should be Enemy and not enemy, Enemy being a proper noun.
To non-Ahmadis they are not God’s words but Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s words. God is perfect and does not make mistakes.
I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that the best way out of this mess would be to demand that all religiously self-identifying types took themselves off to some deserted isle… and left the rest of us the fuck alone.
@Jzero
To Ahmadis they are God’s words revealed to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. God is perfect and above man-made laws and if He chooses, can express himself in the way he desires. Also, I believe God chose uncommon usage rather than “made a mistake”. I hope the examples I provided prove this point.
@Abu Faris
I don’t understand why you would come to a thread on your own will, where theological issues are being discussed, and then say, “and left the rest of us the fuck alone.”
Maybe you should “left the rest of us
the fuckalone.”Mubarak,
That’s exactly my point. To Ahmadis they are God’s words revealed to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. To non-Ahmadis they very badly written sentences and hence cannot be words of a perfect God.
So let’s agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Bye.
Jzero,
While I don’t think there was ever a disagreement between us disagreeing. We were simply trying to share our perspective that God is perfect and above man-made grammatical rules, which may even be imperfect sometimes. We were also trying to show that the sentences you provided were not incorrect but rather uncommon, and as proof I quoted lines from Webster and Wordsworth. In spite of those examples, you may chose to believe what you like.
Mubarak,
That’s a matter of opinion. A justification can be found for whatever anyone wants to believe. Your so called dictionary ‘proofs’ were not convincing at all because they were about totally different expressions. Your argument that God communicated in the most uncommon form of English is also very weak. God is perfect and his message is always crystal clear.
Bye.
Mubarak – At the end of the day even if you worshipped donkeys we would still support your right hold those views.