This is a guest post by Raziq
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According to Islamists, Mustafa Kemal destroyed the last Islamic Caliphate (the Ottoman Empire) on this day in 1924. Today we are constantly told by Islamist groups that Muslims need to recreate the Caliphate. They also say that the Ottomans had created the perfect society for Muslims. So let’s take a look at the facts:
- The Ottomans were nomadic warlords who fought for territory.
- The Ottomans fought against the existing Muslim Empires, brutally killed thousands of Muslims, kidnapped their women and enslaved their children.
- In 1453 the Ottomans seized Constantinople after a bloody siege in which thousands of Christians were killed.
- The Ottomans committed one of the biggest genocides in history. From 1896 to 1915 they systematically murdered over 1 million Armenians.
- The majority of the Ottoman Sultans had massive harems with hundreds of concubines. It was not uncommon for a Sultan to have over 50 children.
- The Ottomans created a slave army (Janissaries) by forcibly taking Christian children from their homes and not letting them ever see their families again.
Is this the perfect system?
Islamists who say that the Ottoman Empire was some sort of utopian state are living in cuckoo land. Yes, the Ottomans were once a formidable world power but to say they created a perfect society and spread equality is a gross distortion of facts. Today Muslim majority countries would be horrified at the prospect of having to be subservient to a colonial type Islamist government. The Arabs fought the Ottomans for a long time to gain independence from this.
Islamists need to realise that the vast majority of Muslim communities around the world are quite happy as they are and would never want to live under an Islamist political system. The age of colonial empires ended long ago and the quicker Islamists realise this the better.
52 Comments
Dr Tahir ul-Qadri a scholar who was recently venerated in a previous posting, has written many books in English. Just by looking at one of them – “Islam – the State Religion” – found online
We find he has said the following:
He claims that “there is a fundamental contrast between an Islamic state and a secular state.” Why? Because “ The authority of a secular state derives from the people themselves. Religion plays no obligatory role in its functioning. But the authority of an Islamic state derives from the Almighty Allah”. He also claims that “Islam is the basis of polity in an Islamic state”, and that the first constitution of Madinah “declared the state of Madinah as a political unit”. He also mentions that the constitution declared the “indivisible composition of the Muslim nation (Ummah) and its total and unquestioning submission to the will of God”.
Furthermore, in a tip to the “dar ul Islam/ dar al-Kufr” split in Islamic political view, he mentions that “In the Holy Quran God Himself has categorically expressed the concept of two-nation theory. There are those people who belong to the Ummah and there are those who are outside it” those who embrace Islam, and those who reject from the other nation”
He also believes in the “Supremacy of Islam over other systems of life” and that “a state is Islamic only when it recognises the constitutional and political predominance of Islam”. With respect to modern constitutions, Tahir ul-Qadri says “since the constitution itself is a document of law, it has to derive its validity from Qur’an and Sunnah”, and modern political rulers have the “religious and moral responsibility to implement the “revealed laws””. In fact – he rejects secular rule stating that “a constitution is a man-made law and by no means it can be declared superior to a God-made law” and that “no authority in the land can suspend enforcement or curtail the implementation of Shariah”
In other words – he is a man who believes in the Sovereignty of God’s law, that Shari’ah equates to State law, that it is a political duty for Muslims to create a political entity that reflects that. In short – there is no doubt that Tahir ul-Qadri sees Islam as a political ideology, whatever Harry’s Place may tell us. Perhaps Tahir ul-Qadri does believe in democracy and human rights, but as is clear from the above his conception of such a State is where the people choose Islam and the rights are defined by Islam. As he mentions in other books, hudood prescriptions are primary/ core issues in the law which must be implemented unless there are societal reasons such as famine or lack of education to do so…
And what has that got to do with the Ottoman Empire?
Funny how most of the Muslims who call for an Islamic state choose to live in the “Dar al-Harb” and wouldn’t dream of going back to the Muslim-majority countries they originate from and try and build one there.
Even Jamaat-e-Islam has moved to East London to find a cosy home in the Labour party.
On the basis that Tahir ul Qadri has his own political party in Pakistan that takes part in the election process, recognises the Pakistani government, accepts the idea of nation states, promotes democracy, has advised and served in the Pakistani government, says Khilafah is not fard I think it is fairly safe to say that he is not an Islamist. Having a discussion about traditional Islamic ideas of goverance and contextualising them does not imply support for the Islamist vision, as his actions clearly demonstrate.
Yes Effendi – Khilafah is something to dream about whilst sitting in an East London flat, living of state benefits, watching x-factor and drinking Pepsi.
Ottoman rule was a disaster for the peoples subjugated to its violent, inefficient and corrupt autocratic rule for centuries. The peoples of the Middle East are still unravelling its consequences.
Good Riddance.
The author of the post is very stupid i must say. The utopian society (regarded by the scholars of islam) was that of the madinan society when the prophet ruled (was alive) that was the prefect and peaceful society. After the death of the prophet many muslims became corrupted (as humans do) and so any other society after the prophet cannot be considered utopian. Yes muslims did progress in the worldy life excelling in many things up to the the decline of the emire, but the worldy progression was at the expense of the religious/spritual progression.
The glory days of Islam were during the reign of the prophet in medina and not during the ottaman rule or any other leaders rule. Many leaders same throughout history to purify the land from the corruption and innovation that had come about through people chasing the dunya.
Nothing here of any substance, and some lines are flat out lies:
>”The Arabs fought the Ottomans for a long time to gain independence from this.”
the Arabs were INSTIGATED to fight the Ottomans (TE Lawrence?) and to claim that they are in any way ‘independent’ actors (of either Britain or the United States) on the world stage is laughable.
>the vast majority of Muslim communities around the world are quite happy >as they are and would never want to live under an Islamist political system.
Another ridiculous statement, given the economic dislocation and political violence that has taken place just in the past decade alone — Iraq, Lebanon, and Egypt. This idiot thinks that Arabs and Muslims should be content with military dictatorships?
the intellectual poverty and political bankruptcy of this piece doesn’t need further comment.
Kahlid, it’s the colonised mindset, still stuck in the colonial homeland…”yes sir, yes sir, three bags full sir.”
The Arabs rose more than once against Ottoman rule without being “instigated” – or are you suggesting that Arabs are incapable of making their own minds up about matters?
Odd that, I will have to let the Palestinians know that their most avid supporters think that, as Arabs, they are brainless drones.
Hang on, perhaps the Palestinians have been instigated… I wonder who could be pulling their strings? I know! Lets blame the Joooz! The Jews have “instigated” the Palestinians to rebel against… erm… the Jews. How brilliant is that??!?!?!
Tie yourselves in knots, Islamists. You are vaguely amusing sometimes, especially when your own dogmas come tumbling down in such spectacular farce – unfortunately, you are also as ultimately, tragically vile.
Kahlid, it’s the colonised mindset, still stuck in the colonial homeland…”yes sir, yes sir, three bags full sir.”
We’re talking about a party which is endorsed by Prince Charles, lovingly backed by Boris Johnson, secretly backed by Ken Livingstone and his far left cronies, and whose senior worthy, Abdul Bari, is about to be made a peer in the House of Lords.
Who are you accusing of having a “colonised mentality”?
And let’s not even forget the backing they received from Richard Nixon in 1971, when they conducted a genocide to kill millions of Muslims in East Pakistan. So, there’s the association of US Imperialism for you disentangle as well.
Mention of TE Lawrence makes me wonder what our Ottoman loving Khalifa crowd would have made of William Shakespear?
Did he insitgate the Ibn Sauds in their internecine wars against all-comers in the Arabian deserts before and during WWI. How does one instigate an already existing war?
Oddly, I wonder who instigated Ibn Saud’s rebellion against Ottoman rule in the latter part of the 18th Century. Who instigated Muhammad Ali Pasha in Egypt? Indeed who instigated the Sultans of Darfur to retain independence from Ottoman control? After all, did not these very devout Sunni Muslims not realise they were defying the will of the Caliph? Did they realise in their distant fastnesses that they were being “instigated”, that they had no brains of their own and should be led to better understanding by Turks?
Of course, the local lads who all think the Ottomans were fab might like to reflect that as non-Turks they would be expected to wear a special uniform to mark their ethnic status. I would have recommended dunces caps, perhaps in velvet, had I had the ear of the ministers of the Sultan oin the Sublime Porte.
What you know of history can be written on the back of the world’s smallest postage stamp, lads. Your contempt for the peoples subjected to the whims of the fat, indolent, inbred scum of the Ottoman royal family speaks volumes for your complete moral vacuity.
Pond-life.
I don’t know any Arabs who want to be ruled by Turks, Somalians or any other race!
Not even Islamist prats!
what? you guys – effendi and co – sell out on your religion and call others ‘colonised’?
The day you see ‘islamists’ come out giving up islamic teachings and getting into bed with islamaphobes and homosexuals as you boys have done, then you can call them colonised .
The day you see ‘islamists’ come out giving up islamic teachings and getting into bed with islamaphobes and homosexuals as you boys have done, then you can call them colonised
It’s called living in a pluralist, liberal society. If you don’t like it, there are at least 4 airports in London you can choose from.
No. Living in a pluralist society is one thing . Getting into bed with selected members of that society is another .
So in your “pluralist society” homosexuals are banned are they? What would you like to do with them? Throw them from the top of mountain, have a wall collapsed on top of them? Stoned to death? Beheaded?
I hope you point that out clearly in your IFE manifesto.
I knew the topic of homosexuals would pull a few strings in your heart. Let me rephrase so you don’t lose anymore sweat and tears over it.
Living in a pluralist society alongside other members of that society (including homosexuals) is one thing . Getting into bed with selected members of that society (including homosexuals) is another.
Remember to put that in the IFE manifesto.
If ever I become an IFE member I might try and do and just that.
Now sit.
Looks like you’re well qualified to be an IFE study group leader, if you’re not one already. Now blow.
What is it with this obsession for knobs and all matters gay with these Islamists?
Is there something you want to tell us, boys?
And it sure looks like you’re well qualified to be member of some ‘muslim’ homosexual advocacy group, if you’re not one already. have fun .
does it hurt you Abu Faris ? criticising your gay comrades ?
Any reason you show show much defensive love for you homosexual buddies? Is there something you’re not telling us lad?
Gay-hatred hurts everyone, muppet.
I am intrigued, though, mace: what is it, exactly, that you find so objectionable about homosexuality?
and more relevantly: what exactly has the sexual orientation of anyone got to do with their views on the Caliphate?
Criticising your gay comrades clearly breaks your heart, Faris. It sure didn’t hurt God when he destroyed the people of Lot, or the prophet Lot when he forbade them from homosexuality .
But sure it hurts you, and real bad too.
Any reason homosexuals hold a more beloved place in your heart than muslims, even islamists ?
And don’t ask questions on homosexuality only to then demand to know it’s relevance to the OP unless you want to look like a fool.
Muppet.
Actually there is a link Abu Faris. Some Muslim Caliphs in the past were gay!
Istanbul under the Ottomans was the gay capital of Europe. It was also famous for sodomy and other homosexual acts. No wonder Islamists keep bringing the gay aspect up.
In the absence of their Islamist caliphate maybe they should take a trip to Brighton. Tower Hamlets doesn’t seem to be doing it for them!
Putting the discussion about caliphates aside for a moment, I’d be interested to hear views about the current rise of ‘Ottomania’ in Turkey. It’s a country on the up and one that stands to benefit from weaknesses all around (Balkans in economic meltdown, the Levant perennially messed up, Arab states dysfunctional, Iran unstable, Russia erratic, the Caucuses volatile, etc.). Seems to me that the classic attributes of Turkey: geography and cultural bridge between Asia, Europe and North Africa, will stand it in very good stead commercially, diplomatically, and strategically. The interesting question is, to what extent will an Islamic identity form a part of growing Turkish influence in the region and beyond.
so, presumably you think it was a better idea for lot to offer his daughters to the mob instead of his visitors? or better that instead he got drunk and got both his daughters pregnant? did that, too, hurt G!D?
i am still intrigued as to how exactly i am “getting into bed with” homosexuals. presumably you think that not wanting them murdered for their orientation, or thinking that they are entitled to the same human rights as me, is a bad thing? what an odd definition of “pluralist” and “liberal” you have, to be sure.
it is surely time to play the music and light the lights.
b’shalom
bananabrain
Mace
Now stand on one foot and recite the entire of your Scripture… unless you grasp this: “You are to love your brother as yourself”, you have understood nothing.
Mace
I am very proud to be associated by you with homosexuals, I would also encourage you to associate me with women, people of colour (as the Americans put it) and all others that suffer oppression, neglect and the sneering hate that you have here exemplified.
I am very proud to have bananabrain as a friend. He teaches me quietly and in an erudite and ever patient way of the glories of his magnificent faith – a faith that for millennia has bound up ur efforts to understand with our efforts to worship the One Lord.
Yet you hate what you do not understand: gay people, women demanding their rights, Black people. Jewish people. What you hate is what you do not understand; and what you do not understand is what you fear. Fear is a sickness and you are enveloped in that sickness. It damages your faith – for how can you have right faith when you fear so much His Creation?
This will go, I fear over your head, and incite you to another round of trolling insults. Not that I care that much for your self-defeating antipathy.
I am proud to stand beside my gay brothers and sister. I am proud to stand beside women fighting for their rights; I am proud to stand with Black people who have had enough of racism. I( am proud to stand beside the Jewish people as they assert themselves in a world that has treated them to such genocidal loathing and yet they have given it so much. I am proud to stand up and be counted in the struggle for the right, the just and the good – and against the darkness.
Abu Faris boy if bannaheads religion is magnificient then join it and stop pretending to be a muslim. We all know you hate islam so why dont you openly say it instead of treading around the matter FOGA
Take note of the Dutch election results, Wiki. Your turn is coming.
wiki: jews do not proselytise. that we leave to those of you too insecure to cope with people who are different.
you’re quite the advert, dontcherknow.
b’shalom
bananabrain
Faris, before anything, you’ve just chucked some accusatory assumptions at mace; he doesn’t stand with black’s rights or women’s right etc. Nowhere above did I ever see mace say anything like that. Where did you get those accusations from?
Secondly, are you suggesting that God loves homosexuals despite their homosexuality and disobedience to Him, and loves the homosexuals of the people of Lut, as you do? Or are you suggesting that the prophet Lut further loved homosexuals as you did? Or are you going to deny the work of the prophet Lut when he forbade them from engaging in homosexuality and called it a ‘evil thing’, and instead opt for standing beside homosexuals in supporting their homosexuality? Yes, they do have the choice and freedom do what they wish, but that does not change the fact that that choice is ‘wrong’ and is not something you, God, or his prophets approved of. If you argue otherwise, bring forth your evidence that God, His prophets and His Book and laws approve of homosexuality as you have done. Rather, God destroyed the homosexual people of Lut, referring to them as a ‘criminal’ people, after having called them to leave their action for many years. On what grounds do you go against God’s description of them, and on what grounds will you argue against God when you meet Him; that you approved of something He outright disapproved of?
Bananabrains, not sure what version of the story you’re following or what personal conclusions you’ve been jumping to. They are yours and solely yours.
oh *really*? i think you’ll find there are quite a lot of people besides me that are aware of genesis 19:8 and 19:30-38.
it is hardly my fault if you are ignorant of the original story as presented in the Torah.
b’shalom
bananabrain
Oh, that explains it then.
Respectabilia
Oh yes, mace has proven to be himself an utterly reasonable and unbigoted individual, has he not?
Firstly – It’s “Abu Faris”, not “Faris”, or even “Stupid” as some of the more excitable Bengali-speakers hereabouts seem to like calling my son.
Secondly – I assume that someone who enthusiastically supports the positions of the IFE shares their bigoted views concerning women, Black people and Jews – and would you know it, along comes Wiki and confirms as much about Jews.
Actually, I find his and your views about homosexuals quite offensive enough without recourse to your dodgy interpretations of Holy Scripture, or reference to any other group about who Islamists have irrational phobias.
Here is the story of another genocide of Muslims by Muslims which continues to be covered-up by official “party line” by the Government of Turkey, with the sanction of the USA (Obama no less!) 95 years later.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100304/ap_on_go_co/us_us_armenian_genocide
No one has been found guilty in court over this , so I suppose this never happened either…
To correct you, Dawood – Overwhelmingly, Armenians are Christians.
They belong to one of the most ancient and most venerable Christian churches, the Armenian Apostolic Church – one that is communion with the Copts in Egypt.
In fact, there are striking parallels in the history of the Armenian people and the Jewish people.
Deprived of their ancient lands, persecuted because of their faith, the Armenian community clung to their faith, establishing themselves in nearly every corner of the medieval and modern Middle East. Incidentally, Armenia was the first avowedly Christian state to have ever been established.
Their heartlands were taken from them through genocide and war waged against them by a vengeful Anatolian Turkish regime determined to keep the Armenian people from their self-determination.
Despite the genocide, despite the repression of the Soviet era, today, Armenia is a proud, independent republic.
All Armenians recall the genocide inflicted upon them by the Turkish forces in the early 20th Century. They will neither forgive nor forget. Independent Armenia is their refuge and safeguard. Long may it prosper.
Our Fatherland, free, independent,
That has lived for centuries,
Is now summoning its sons
To the free, independent Armenia.
Is now summoning its sons
To the free, independent Armenia.
Here is a flag for you my brother,
That I have sewed
Over the sleepless nights,
And bathed in my tears.
Over the sleepless nights,
And bathed in my tears.
Look at it, tricoloured,
A valuable symbol for us.
Let it shine against the enemy.
Let Armenia be glorious forever.
Let it shine against the enemy.
Let Armenia be glorious forever.
Death is the same everywhere,
A man dies but once,
Blessed is the one that dies
For the freedom of his nation.
Blessed is the one that dies
For the freedom of his nation.
Our Fatherland, free, independent,
That has lived for centuries,
Is now summoning its sons
To the free, independent Armenia.
Is now summoning its sons
To the free, independent Armenia.
Yo Abu FOGA you said this – ‘along comes Wiki and confirms as much about Jews.’
Please tell me what I have said about Jews, my only mention has been about their politics i.e. Zionism
gosh, i’m so sorry – and there was me thinking that you don’t really make any distinction when it comes down to it: “my only mention has been about their politics” – so, the politics of all jews, then? doesn’t that kind of imply that all jews are zionists, so, consequently, when you say “zionists”, you are referring to all jews?
i’m only asking because it’s hard to work out what you are actually on about. perhaps you should be spending less time texting your mates with one finger and playing nintendo and more time learning to type, spell and construct grammatical sentences. don’t let me distract you from your gcse coursework.
b’shalom
bananabrain
Wiki
Let me just comment that my heart bleeds for you and all those other homophobic, sexist, racist, anti-Semitic, anti-democratic, theocratic, illiberal clerical fascist scum that come to this site to show us what a bunch of uncouth, illiterate, bigoted oiks you really are.
Boo feckin’ hoo.
Lots of long words for you to look up there, boyo.
A few verses from the Qur’an (word of allah) which I believe summarises you people, I shall say no more.
“And who believe in the revelation sent to you (Muhammed) and sent before you, and they believe to the hereafter.
They are on true guidance from Allah, and they are who will prosper.
As those who reject faith, it is same to them, you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.
Allah has sealed their hearts and their hearing, and also their eyesight are closed. And for them great penalisation.
Among the people there are some who say “we believe in Allah and the hereafter”, but in fact they do not believe.
They try to deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves and they do not realise it.
In their heart is disease, and Allah has increased their disease; and grievous penalisation for them, caused by the tell a lie.
When it is said to them: “Do not make mischief on earth”, they reply: “In fact we want to make peace.” Remember, in fact they are the people who make damage, but they do not realise it.
If told to them: “Believe as the others believe.” They reply: “shall we believe as the fools believe?” Remember, in fact they are the fools; but they know not.
When they meet those who believe, they say: “we believe”. And when they return to their evil, they say: “we are really with you, we are only jesting.”
Allah will throw back their mockery on them and let them unsolved in their trespasses.
These are those who have bartered guidance with trespasses (perverting), but their trading is profitless and they have lost their true direction.
Their similarity is like a man who kindles a fire, when it is lighted around him, Allah took away the light and left them in darkness, cannot see.
They are deaf, dumb and blind, and they will not return to the right path.” (Baqara 2:4-18)
It wasnt just Muslims who opposed Ataturks abolition of the Ottoman State
From CONSTANTINOPLE : City of the World’s Desire 1453-1924 (New York, 1996) by Philip Mansel
“P.414: The Caliph’s secretary Salih Keramet, son of the poet Nigar hanim, recorded in his diary that the cars frequently got stuck in mud on the road, and gendarmerie had to put downs stones to enable to drive free. At 11, tired, hungry and sad, the party arrived at Catalca railway station. The Caliph tried to smile when the police and gendarmerie gave him his last salute. The station manager tried to make them comfortable in his family’s private quarters. He was Jewish and Jews were the only minority to retain bond of loyalty to the dynasty. When the Caliph expressed his thanks, the station manager replied in words which brought tears in all eyes:
“ The Ottoman dynasty is the saviour of Turkish Jews . When our ancestors were driven out of Spain, and looked for a country to take them in, it was the Ottomans who agreed to give us shelter and saved us from extinction. Through the generosity of their government, once again they received freedom of religion and language, protection for their women, their possessions and their lives. Therefore our conscience obliges to serve you as much as we can in your darkest hour.”
Presumably Ottoman Jews are also “Islamists”
and of course the main physical resistance to Ataturk came from the Kurds
under the Sufi Naqshabandi Sheikh Said Piran
Presumably Sufis and Kurds are also “Islamists”
Under the secular Turkish state the Kurds have of course suffered greviously
The present religious-based AK party has given them more rights than any Turkish government.
There has never been an overrridingly unjust muslim civilisation ruling more than a century, which is a historical fact. The Ottomans are the longest lived Islamic dynasty in history.
Whilst there are some truths in the authors list of “facts”, i’m afraid many are just outright defamation as taught in the former territories of the Ottoman empire such as Bulgaria who are celebrating their “liberation” today.
Don’t get me wrong, they weren’t perfect, but historical evidence proves that they had maintained a society that recognised the inherrent differences of groups and allowed them to live as such. Unlike of course today, where differences are seen as something that are unacceptable.
I recently watched a PBS documentary, which i’m sure many of you will find useful. Commenting on historical civilisations without the social context and understanding of the times is absurd.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI7Qkcyz3tM