Last week, The Spittoon published a two-part exposé (Part 1 and Part 2) of the workings of the Neocon Europe website and, in particular, Professor David Miller of Strathclyde University, its leading editor. We were especially concerned at how the site came to reproduce material and commentary from the notorious anti-semite Kevin MacDonald.
It is not only the contributors of David Miller’s Neocon Europe site who find the racist and essentialist ideas of MacDonald appealing. MacDonald also happens to be lovingly quoted by Lee John Barnes, the “legal representative” of the BNP.
Following the publication of the articles on The Spittoon, Professor Miller published a statement of correction last week:
The Spittoon does correctly note that the statements were removed from this website some time before the Spittoon published its allegations. This was carried out by myself at 07:17hrs on 11 November 2009 as soon as I became aware that they had been posted on the site.
The reason that the quotations by Macdonald were removed is that Macdonald has been repeatedly and rightly (in our view) accused of racism. Moreover, the statements expressed core essentialist anti-semitic/racist ideas. This material should not have been posted and is in no way endorsed by this site. I apologise for, and deeply regret, this error.
As a result this website has taken steps to tighten the editorial process governing the posting of material. It should be clear to all who read this site that it is as opposed to anti-Semitism and neo-fascism as it is to Islamophobia and other racist ideologies.
This site will continue to report fairly and factually on the networks and actors currently shaping both foreign and domestic policy, pushing for further wars, and those contributing to the wave of Islamophobia currently sweeping Europe.
While we are encouraged by Professor Miller’s swift actions to remove any reference to the anti-semitic and racist works by Kevin MacDonald from his site, questions on its editorial process still apply:
1) Who posted the material in the first place?
2) Is the person still writing for Neocon Europe? If so, why?
3) Have any steps been taken to review and if necessary remove material produced by this contributor from this website, and other websites associated with Professor Miller?
We would be very grateful to Professor Miller if he could kindly furnish the answers to these rather important questions.
27 Comments
i am bound to ask if we’ve actually done this guy a favour by pointing out the things that reveal the sincere nastiness of his views. obviously, he can remove them and then claim to be shoring up his crumbling anti-racist credentials. have we actually modified his views? i doubt it. all we have enabled him to do is learn how to dissemble better. mind you, i have grave doubts that we could ever produce evidence that could disturb his rock-solid conviction of his own rightness.
b’shalom
bananabrain
As ever, Spittoon clutching at straws. Miller has the moral integrity to recognise his mistakes and ensure there is no room for anti-semitism or neo-facism. I hope he can continue in his crusade in revealing the nastiness that you and your friends represent
Miller is a pathological anti-semite and he is willing to support and team-up with Islamists, neo-Nazis and other anti-semites to malign and defame anyone who does not hold his world-view.
I am surprised Stathclyde Uni still employ this nasty man.
Yeah but Macdonald can say he is identifying with his ethnicity the same way jews and others identify with their ethnicity. He says that Whites are not allowed to have ethnic interests as other people.
I don’t mind White nationalism, its White supremacism that is wrong in my mind.
The Quran says:
Among His signs are the creation of Heaven and Earth, as well as the diversity in your tongues and colors. In that are signs for those who know.30.22
O mankind, We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into races and tribes, so that you may identify one another. Surely the noblest of you, in Allah‘s sight, is the one who is most pious of you. Surely Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware. (Hujurat) 49-13
So a case can be built from the Quran of ethnic nationalism since the Quran itself says we were made into communities based on differences in race and color and culture. However the last pasrt of the verse 49-13 is countering supremacism. The belief that God looks at your color or race or culture when He judges. The Quran says God look at your faith and deeds.
Quranist – thanks for quoting from the Qoran. I probably agree with you that the Qoran promotes nationalism, which is the first step to racism – all forms of fascism emanated originally from a nationalist ideology. What is interesting is that this piece of trash (Qoran) does not say anything about racism and discrimination which is the natural result of “races and tribes” when left unchecked to egalitarian principles.
And before you obfuscate that Quran does that by putting the pious above all, let me tell you that you are wrong because by putting the pious above all, you still have not negated racism or discrimination and you have not affirmed egalitarian principles which the Qoran is essentially devoid of.
Furthermore, the Qoran promotes racism against unbelievers, disbelievers, apostates, people of other faiths. And then it promotes sexism against women. And it promotes discrimination against slaves.
So get your story right, and take that piece of rubbish the Qoran, the rantings of a deranged warlord lunatic and pedophile, out of this website.
Khaled – a proud Muslim apostate
“So get your story right, and take that piece of rubbish the Qoran, the rantings of a deranged warlord lunatic and pedophile, out of this website.”
Khaled,
Who would have thought that a ‘piece of trash’ could provide spiritual isnpiration to over a billion Muslims, and countless others. That must really get your gripe huh Khaled? Tell us more.
Khaled is no Khaled. He is no ex-muslim. There are countless of people like him who fake their identity in the net. You can see them is muslimsagainstshariah blog. They say there are ex muslims but me being a quranist I know what ex muslims usually say. They most of the time can not believe the Quran is not what they thought. However people like “Khaled” hide their identity so as you don’t attack their religion or ethnicity in response.
Quranist,
Enough with the takfir, already!
If we are going to bandy accusations around, I would guess that you are yet another burned-out Wahhabi.
What gives the game away is that la madhab line of yours. That and your evident contempt for Shi’a (the “empire of Ja’afar as-Siddiq”) and Sufi (the African “empire of Malik”). Of course, we should not forget your delightful line in anti-Jewish hate (complete with all those favourite – and distinctly dodgy “quotes” from the Torah culled from Rense.com or Stormfront). Nor, your predilection for Quran’ic literalism.
So, give it a rest, eh? It’s Xmas and you are fooling no-one.
Hassan – your argument that the Qoran is correct becuase a billion people (mindlessly) believe in it – is called a “fallacy from numbers”. A billion people once thought that the earth was flat. Does that make the earth flat? As you can see, the truth stands above what a billion people may mindlessly believe.
The reason there are so many muslims, is because they are BORN into muslim families, and as with any ideology and culture, the children get assimilated into that and they lose their critical thinking. Also, Islam is the most aggressively brainwashing and dogmatic of all ideologies that are know to mankind (short of some wierd cults). Children are subject to constant brainwashing that if they dont mindlessly believe in Islam and if they dont put their intelligence in park, then they will burn in hell for eternity. Do you really think a 9 year old will not have his/her mind permanently damaged due to such inhumane psychological onslaught?
I know that because I was subject to it. But when I discovered that Mohammad was a ruthless assassin and slave owner, I decided that there was something fishy about Mohammad and Islam. Its called doubt or shakk va tardid. Dont be scared of shakk Hassan – you will not burn in hell – unlike what your aunt or your neighborhood molla told you. Open up your mind and seek evidence and logic.
Khaled – a proud Muslim apostate – despite being born Muslim had the courage to realize that mindless belief is below human dignity
Quranist – typical to the lowly Islamic scholar, you cant refute my point and you cant provide logical argumentation – so you attack the writer. Just like the douchebag prophet Mohammad did by sending his henchmen to assassinate dissenters to his rule.
I do not fake my identity, and I am a proud apostate. Why dont you take the next sentence to a friend of yours who may know farsi and let him translate it for you – and then you can cry and repent -
goh sag to dahaneh payaambar mohammad rasool khoda va khanevadehash keh islam sarzamineh maa raa nabood kard va maa islam raa az bein mibarim va risheh kan mikonim. shashidam bar mohammad rasoolollah va reedam bar qoran.
If you wish I will translate that for you right here – but its not very nice.
Why is it so difficult for you to accept that a Muslim may decide to drop islam like a piece of trash? I know why, because it causes you deep shakk va tardid, and as a 9 year old you were thought that shakk will lead to burning in hell – how childish of you and your culture.
I dont have a stupid religion, Quranist anymore, so you are unable to attack my religion (oh I thought Islam accepted other religions of the book, what happened Qoranist now you wish to attack other religions?)
And if you wish to attack my ethnicity, well that makes you a racist and it gives credence to what Abu Faris and Faisal say about you being a “stormfront muslim” I.e. an Islamic fascist.
May prophet mohammad burn all over in hell to have created mindless monstrocities like yourself.
Khaled, a very proud Muslim apostate
And do u have any evidence from the Quran that Muhamamd was an assasin or a slave owner? What is his job in the Quran?
Anyways Muslims will simply point to the Old Testament and you will have no way to retaliate.
Quran on freedom
16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .
6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.
4:79-80 Say:’Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper.”
11:28 He (Noah) said “O my people! think over it! If I act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it?�
17:53-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe …. Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith.
21:107-109 (O Prophet?) ‘We have not sent you except to be a mercy to all mankind:” Declare, “Verily, what is revealed to me is this, your God is the only One God, so is it not up to you to bow down to Him?’ But if they turn away then say, “I have delivered the Truth in a manner clear to one and all, and I know not whether the promised hour is near or far.”
22:67 To every people have We appointed ceremonial rites which they observe; therefore, let them not wrangle over this matter with you, but bid them to turn to your Lord. You indeed are rightly guided. But if they still dispute you in this matter, `God best knows what you do.”
24.54. Say: “Obey God, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger’s duty is only to preach the clear (Message).
88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.
48:28 He it is Who has sent forth His Messenger with the Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to the end that tie make it prevail over every religion, and none can bear witness to the Truth as God does.
36:16 17 (Three Messengers to their people) Said, “Our Sustainer knows that we have indeed been sent unto you, but we are not bound to more than clearly deliver the Message entrusted to us.’
39:41 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.
42:6 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach ….
64:12 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.
67:25 26 And they ask, “When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?” Say, “The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner.”
10.99-100. If it had been thy Lord’s will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand
28.55-56 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: “To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we seek not the ignorant,” It is true thou wilt not be able to guide whom thou lovest; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance.
109.1-6 Say : O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine.
74.11-17 Leave Me with whom I created alone!, To whom I granted resources in abundance, And sons to be by his side, To whom I made (life) smooth and comfortable, Yet is he greedy-that I should add (yet more);- By no means! For to Our Signs he has been refractory!, Soon will I visit him with a mount of calamities!
“So have We appointed for every Prophet an enemy – devils of men and Jinns; who inspire each other with seductive, deceptive speech which leads astray; but had thy Lord willed they would not have done so. So leave them with what they do devise. And let the hearts of those who believe not in the Hereafter listen to it; and let them be well pleased with it; and let them gain what they can gain!” 6:113-114
“And when you see those who meddle with Our revelations, withdraw from them until they meddle with another topic. And if the devil causes you to forget, sit not, after the remembrance, with the congregation of wrongdoers. 6:68
2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing
Quranist
What on earth have any of those quotations to do with the issues raised by Khaled, or your intolerant attitude towards him?
Perhaps you would be so kind as to stop littering this site with gigantic swathes of seemingly randomly generated quotations from the Qur’an.
These do not help your case – indeed they simply make you seem to be some sort of rather annoying crank.
Quranist – go ahead and diss the Old Testament. Why would I care. I hear its as silly a document as the Qoran. (what happened to the supposed Islamic respect for the monotheistic “books” – so you confess that interfaith activities is just insincere BS?) Besides, cant you answer criticism against the Qoran without bringing some other faith down? Is your Qoran such a silly document that the only way you can defend it is to show that there are other equally silly and deranged books?
Yes, we both agree that the Old Testament is nonsense.
It is well documented in the history of the life of Mohammad that he owned slaves (and slept with Maria the sex slave). The Qoran contains many approving references to slavery and never condemns this assinine practice.
Mohammad’s assassination of his oponents is well documented. Google Asma Bint Marwan for example.
Now talking about “evidence” – what is your evidence that Mohammad could talk to angels, and what is your evidence that angels even exist? Put up the evidence, or get a life, stop the BS, and stop brainwashing your many children.
As Abu Faris says, what is the point of cutting and pasting Mohammad’s words here? We know that Islam hates freedom of speech and there is no instance of an Islamic society in history that allowed criticism of Mohammad, the Qoran (written by some idiot khalifeh 60 years after Mohammad flew on his unicorn), or any criticism of Islam.
You Wahhabis are the scum of the earth, and the internet has made sure that in time your ideology gets flushed down the toilet. And as a very proud muslim apostate (goh sag dar dahane rasoolollah qaatel jaakesh kasif va qabih) who has dropped Islam proudly, let me tell you that the internet has brought so much shakk in the minds of the good muslim folks that if Islam is not quickly reformed and civilized, it will practically cease to exist in the next few decades, anywhere that the internet is available. And that includes Lebanon, Iraq, Iran and hopefully Afghanistan.
Its been a waste of time debating with you.
Where is this assasin and slavery stuff in the Quran? Just show us the stuff. You probably don’t know what is the diference between the Quran and the Sects, just like from your quotes you don’t know the difference between the Old Testament and the Talmud. Jesus in the gospel condemned the Pharisees and their Talmud, and so did the Quran. The Quran came to confirm the Old and New tetsament but condemmned the excessive elements within Rabbinic Judaism and the Trinity.
But what do you guys know. You guys know sectarian Islam established tow to three centuries after the Quran. Just like Pharisiac Judaism and the Trinitarian concept(divinity of Jesus) were also established centuries after the written texts.
Anyways the Quran is peace!
Quranist,
You have been exposed as an anti-Semite and an all-round bigot.
Take it elsewhere, please. Perhaps back under the MPACuk rock from which you so recently scuttled forth to stain this site with your reactionary and vile opinions.
Actually, I said no such thing and thus, cannot be accused of falling into this mindless fallacy of numbers trap. I merely pointed out, correctly, that the Quran (literature you referred to as a piece of trash) provided spiritual solace to over a billion people. The obvious conclusion being, that a significant minority of the world’s population do not consider it to be a ‘piece of trash’.
I went on to ask whether this magnificent status afforded to the quran gets your gripe, which it clearly does. It’s a shame really, do have so much anger and rage towards a religion and its followers.
An Atheist friend of mine, despite believing much the same as you, doesn’t resort to offensive language when discussing religion. The debates we have are calm, rational and even enjoyable. You could learn a lot from him and people of his ilk, although I fear you wont.
May the grace and favour of the lord be with you, ya Khaled.
Toodles.
Do tell us where this remarkable condemnation occurred.
Incidentally, there are four canonical Gospels, not one.
Clearly you have read none of them.
Now, do go away.
Matt 23:31-33 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?”
Matt 15:1-3 “Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.” He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?”
Matt 23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.”
Matt 23:27-29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
As far as the Quran:
2.80 And they say: “The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days:” Say: “Have ye taken a promise from God, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of God what ye do not know?”
This is not in the Torah but its refering to the Talmud. The supposed “oral” traditions the Rabbis say was passed down to them. The Talmud are the collections of the traditions of the so called Pharisees talked about in the Gospel who were fierce opponents of Jesus the Messiah.
The Rabbinic tradition arose from the Pharisaic tradition after the destruction of the Second Temple in AD 70. In general, it moved away from traditional Judaism’s emphasis on an earthly future for Israel toward the concept of reward in the life to come.[4] Gehinom (Gehenna), according to rabbinic literature, is a place or state where the wicked are temporarily punished after death. “Gehenna” is sometimes translated as “hell”, but the Christian view of hell differs from the Jewish view of Gehenna. Most sinners are said to suffer in Gehenna no longer than twelve months.Those who are too wicked to reach paradise are sometimes said to be punished forever.[5] Other accounts reject the idea that a merciful God would punish anyone forever,[6] in which case those too wicked for purification are destroyed (see annihilationism)
Gehenna – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Also in the Talmud:
Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile (“Cuthean”) the wages owed him for work.
The Koran condemned this:
3.75. Among the People of the Book are some who, if entrusted with a hoard of gold, will (readily) pay it back; others, who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless thou constantly stoodest demanding, because, they say, “there is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant (Pagans).” but they tell a lie against God, and (well) they know it.
Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus’ mother was a whore: “She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters.” Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b of the Soncino edition, it is stated that in the “uncensored” text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, “Miriam the hairdresser,” had sex with many men.
4.156 Quran
That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;
The famous warning of Jesus Christ about the tradition of men that voids Scripture (Mark 7:1-13), is in fact, a direct reference to the Talmud, or more specifically, the forerunner of the first part of it, the Mishnah, which existed in oral form during Christ’s lifetime, before being committed to writing. Mark chapter 7, from verse one through thirteen, represents Our Lord’s pointed condemnation of the Mishnah.
Also:
The Schindler’s List Quote
The Talmud (i.e., the Babylonian Talmud) text of Sanhedrin 37a restricts the duty to save life to saving only Jewish lives.
The book on Hebrew censorship, written by Jews themselves (Hesronot Ha-shas), notes that some Talmud texts use the universalist phrase:
“Whoever destroys the life of a single human being…it is as if he had destroyed an entire world; and whoever preserves the life of a single human being …it is as if he had preserved an entire world.”
However, Hesronot Ha-shas points out that these are not the authentic words of the original Talmud.
In other words, the preceding universalist rendering is not the authentic text of the Talmud and thus, for example, this universalist version which Steven Spielberg in his famous movie, Schindler’s List attributed to the Talmud (and which became the motto of the movie on posters and in advertisements), is a hoax and constitutes propaganda intended to give a humanistic gloss to a Talmud which is, in its essence, racist and chauvinist hate literature.
In the authentic, original Talmud text it states that “whoever preserves a single soul of Israel, it is as if he had preserved an entire world” (emphasis supplied). The authentic Talmud text sanctions only the saving of Jewish lives.
The Koran tells us about this and condemns this:
5.32 On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person – unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land – it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land
“According to the Talmud, Jesus was executed by a proper rabbinical court for idolatry, inciting other Jews to idolatry, and contempt of rabbinical authority. All classical Jewish sources which mention his execution are quite happy to take responsibility for it; in the talmudic account the Romans are not even mentioned.
“The more popular accounts–which were nevertheless taken quite seriously–such as the notorious Toldot Yeshu are even worse, for in addition to the above crimes they accuse him of witchcraft. The very name ‘Jesus’ was for Jews a symbol of all that is abominable and this popular tradition still persists…
The koran tells us:
4.157. That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
The Talmud then say:
Rosh Hashanah 17a. Christians (minnim) and others who reject the Talmud will go to hell and be punished there for all generations.
Sanhedrin 90a. Those who read the New Testament (“uncanonical books”) will have no portion in the world to come.
Shabbath 116a. Jews must destroy the books of the Christians, i.e. the New Testament.
The koran responds by:
And they say: “None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian.” Those are their (vain) desires. Say: “Produce your proof if ye are truthful.”Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to God and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. The Jews say: “The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say: “The Jews have naught (To stand) upon.” Yet they study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but God will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment. 2.111-113
“Non-Jewish property belongs to the Jew who uses it first” – (Babba Bathra 54b)
“If two Jews have deceived a Non-Jew, they have to split the profit” – (Choschen Ham 183,7)
“Every Jew is allowed to use lies and perjury to bring a Non-Jew to ruin” – (Babha Kama 113a)
“The Jew is allowed to practice usury on the Non-Jew” – (Talmud IV/2/70b)
The koran then says:
4.160. For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) good and wholesome which had been lawful for them;- in that they hindered many from God’s Way;-
4.161. That they took usury, though they were forbidden; and that they devoured men’s substance wrongfully;- we have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment.
Note: The Torah forbids the Jews from the devouring of Usury (“neshek”).See the Old Testament Ex. 22: 25;
Le. 25: 36-37; De. 23:19-20; Ne. 5: 7/10; Ps. 15: 5; Pr. 28:8
The Koran then says:
4.162. But those among them who are well-grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what hath been revealed to thee and what was revealed before thee: And (especially) those who establish regular prayer and practise regular charity and believe in God and in the Last Day: To them shall We soon give a great reward.
Take care. Quran is peace!
Quranist
You have posted these quotations on the the wrong thread. No matter. They do not prove your wild thesis that Jesus was claiming that the Pharisees were inventing their own Law. Internally, your quotations show him accusing them of being hypocrites: of their actions being at variance with the meaning of the Law. You are evidently unaware of a central plank of Jesus’ claims, to wit: the distinction between the letter and spirit of the Law.
The quotations from the Qur’an do not prove your point so much as strengthen the claim that the Qur’an is a construct of earlier religious texts drawn together by a syncretic monotheist deep in the Arabian desert in the early to mid 7th Century CE. So what?
Do try to post to the correct thread. It makes your usual scatter-gun approach look all the more scatterbrained otherwise.
Quranist
Actually your position is unwitting and somewhat entertaining.
Jesus’ polemics against the Pharisees and Scribes was, in the main, focussed on their adherence to the letter of the Law and their simultaneous neglect of its spirit. He was condemning them for their literalism, in part. The dysfunction between their practice of religious injunctions and their neglect of their spiritual meaning is the cause of his depiction of their position as hypocritical.
Equally, your ignorance of this central plank of Jesus’ mission means that you miss entirely the meaning of the parable of the Good Samaritan (for example – the victim cannot be tended for by those on the way to the Temple because it would lead to a ritual defilement – the point being that the spirit of the Law is being neglected in favour of the letter of the Law).
You also will not be able to make sense of the Scribe’s assent with Jesus when he is questioned as to the Law. Jesus responds with the Shema. As a good rabbi, he reminds his audience that to love the Lord is also to treat others as one would want to be treated oneself. The Scribe can find nothing amiss in this definition of the Law – one which makes direct appeal to the irrevocable connection between the letter and spirit of the Law. Jesus is playing a blinder here – the audience of highly educated religious authorities knows this perfectly well. They cannot reject his definition, as it is entirely correct – yet it also points up their neglect of the spirit of the Law and their one-sided approach to the Law. For Jesus, there is a dialectic between spirit and letter of the Law. His objections to the Pharisees and scribes is not their rejection of the Law, but their formal, mechanical grasp of the same. A limitation which leaves out the moral and spiritual dimension of the Law – and thus renders it mute and incapable of acting in this world.
What is somewhat amusing is that any criticism of Islamism will make very similar points: Islamists are wedded to a formal, mechanical, amoral, literalist interpretation of religious Law, in which the letter is ever supreme over the spirit. Shari’a is not a way to the oasis of spirituality; but is a closed and fixed assertion of the allegedly already concluded. There is no debate about correct action, there is simply the mechanical repetition of past ritual behaviours (and this is the important bit) without any consideration for their meaning, value or correctness within given contexts. The way to Paradise is seen as the formalised, unthinking repetition of ritual, not the moral and spiritual struggle of being in this world and of being with the Law.
If Jesus were to return today, the Pharisees and Scribes he would condemn would come in big beards, spouting endless reams of the Qur’an – humourless, unthinking hypocrites.
Mark, 12: 28-34
Jesus spoke of the TORAH Law and not the TALMUD Law. Judaism today is built on the Talmudic literature which abrogates the Torah just luike the Sunnah abrogated the Quran.
While other cultures and Jewish groups maintained oral traditions, only the Rabbis gave ideological significance to the fact that they transmitted their tradition orally.[1] According to Rabbinic tradition, Moses and the Israelites received an oral as well as the written Torah (“teaching”) from God at Mount Sinai. The books of the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) were relayed with an accompanying oral tradition passed on by each generation. Jewish law and tradition thus is not based on a strictly literal reading of the Tanakh, but on combined oral and written traditions.
Rabbis of the Talmudic era conceived of the Oral Law in two distinct ways. First, Rabbinic tradition conceived of the Oral law as an unbroken chain of transmission. The distinctive feature of this view was that Oral Law was “conveyed by word of mouth and memorized.”[2] Second, the Rabbis also conceived of the Oral law as an interpretive tradition, and not merely as memorized traditions. In this view, the written Torah was seen as containing many levels of interpretation. It was left to later generations, who were steeped in the oral tradition of interpretation to discover those (“hidden”) interpretations not revealed by Moses.[3]
The “oral law” was ultimately recorded in the Mishnah, the Talmud and Midrash.
Rabbinic Judaism believed that the traditional interpretations received through the Oral Torah were binding. This belief, however, was not accepted amongst all segments of Judaism and religions which schismed from Judaism.
[edit] Galileans
The ancient Galileans were noted as not being strict to oral traditions. Many of the people Galilee, were less strict “The Galileans generally were not such sticklers for tradition as were the Judeans. – Compare with Talmud (Megillah 75a)” “the former are, in fact, charged with neglecting tradition. In this regard it may be noted that Pharisees and scribes from Jerusalem, not from Galilee, were the ones who took issue with the failure of Jesus’ disciples to observe the traditional washing of hands.— Mark 7:1, 5.”
[edit] Sadducees
Sadducees rejected the Pharisaic oral traditions. They based their interpretations on their own traditions emphasizing a more literal understanding of the verses. In many respects, this led to a more severe observance than that of the Pharisees especially as regards purity laws and temple practice. It must be noted that most aspects of Sadduceean law and methods of interpretation are not known.
[edit] Essenes
Essenes, a monastic group of people, had a “monastic organization”. Though they had non-biblical rules, and customs, they reject much of the oral traditions.
[edit] Christians
Christians generally reject a notion of any oral Torah as they see most of the laws in Tanakh as completed or fulfilled by Jesus (Matthew 5:17). According to some, Jesus rejects some oral traditions as seen in Matthew 15:1, 2, 7-11; and Mark 7:4-8.
[edit] Karaites
Main article: Karaite Judaism
Karaite Judaism or Karaism is a Jewish denomination which arose about the time of the completion of the Talmud. It is characterized by the rejection of writing down the Oral Law and Talmud, and, on its reliance on the Tanakh as scripture.
Some Karaites strive to adhere only to the p’shat (plain meaning) of the text. This is in contrast to Rabbinic Judaism, which relies on the Oral Law and employs several interpretive methods which, at times, stray from the literal meaning.
The laws transmitted to Moses were contained in the Torah written down on scrolls. According to proponents of the Oral Torah, the explanation however, was not allowed to be written down. Jews were obligated to speak the explanation and pass it on orally to students, children, and fellow adults. It was thus forbidden to write and publish the Oral Law.[6]
Following the destruction of the Second Temple and the fall of Jerusalem, it became apparent that the Palestine community and its learning were threatened, and that publication was the only way to ensure that the law could be preserved. [7]
Thus, around 200 CE, a redaction of oral law in writing was completed. Rabbinic tradition ascribes this effort to Rabbi Judah haNasi. The Mishna is generally considered the first work of Rabbinic literature.
Over the next four centuries this body of law, legend and ethical teachings underwent debate and discussion (Gemara) in the two centers of Jewish life, Israel and Babylonia. The Gemara with the Mishnah came to be edited together into compilations known as the Talmud.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_Torah
Take care. Quran is peace!
Quranist
At no point does Jesus make any such distinction between Torah and Talmud. This is a figment of your imagination. You can provide no primary evidences for the same (indeed, you cannot, the Gospels are – at best – secondary sources; and even they are empty of your wanted claims). Thus you divert down your usual path of cutting and pasting. Please do not do this. We can all access the wikipedia article via a link, we do not need you to regurgitate an entire wikipedia entry – one which is both irrelevant to the discussion and, as such, proves nothing whatsoever. I urge you to desist.
Address the points I raised, or this discussion is pointless. Your views on Judaism and Jesus’ message are erroneous, offensive and tedious.
Incidentally, as you claim that I am Jewish, would it not be reasonable to assume that I would have already known the facts about the oral Law?
Unless, that is, that you were using the term “Jewish” as an insult – as I strongly suspect, with rather a large body of evidence now, that you were in fact so doing.
I would suggest you read The Spittoon‘s mission statement, here:
http://www.spittoon.org/about
This is not a sub-branch of Ummah.com or MPACuk – sites where assuredly your weird and wild views will find a more appreciative audience.
Many thanks.
Might I also remind you that you have posted your extra-strength cut and pastes to completely the wrong thread?
Or is it your intention to deface all the threads in this manner?
i see “quranist” is following me around the web having previously infested interfaith.org as “koranist”, posting precisely the same rubbish here:
http://www.interfaith.org/forum/ask-the-people-of-the-11496.html
he makes exactly the same unfounded, ignorant and cloth-headed cut-and-paste-from-white-supremacist-via-islamist criticisms of the Talmud, which i refute point by point here:
http://www.interfaith.org/forum/ask-the-people-of-the-11496.html#post201085
http://www.interfaith.org/forum/ask-the-people-of-the-11496.html#post201387
and here:
http://www.interfaith.org/forum/jewish-beliefs-not-corrupted-5265.html
which includes links to more reputable (i.e. not reposted to islamist sites from where they were originally posted on the neo-nazi interweb)
http://talmud.faithweb.com/articles/wages.html
http://talmud.faithweb.com/articles/jesus.html#harlot
don’t waste your time, nincompoop.
thanks anyway, abu faris.
b’shalom
bananabrain
for some reason i’m having difficulty with this, but here goes anyway:
b’shalom
bananabrain