I think you wrote an excellent article here. As somebody who is not haredi, but with haredi family members, I have gotten to know that world well.

Given this experience, my perception of your point 7 is quite different than yours – namely, it seems to me that the main complaint of haredim against the State of Israel is that they are against a favorable view of Orthodox Judaism in society (see, for example, how the State refuses to incorporate real Jewish education into “secular” state schools despite these being among the most violent in the world, vs the haredi ones, which have no violence). It is no secret that classical Zionist ideology is very aggressively secular.

I believe as well that a quick check of the biggest “poskim” (legal authorities) in the haredi world, such as Rabbi Elyashiv and Ovadia Yosef (despite his many controversial comments), will quickly show you that almost none consider the State of Israel a “crime against G-d”. It’s simply a problem that the education system on all levels is dominated by people dead-set against traditional Jewish practice.

Aside from that, I enjoyed reading your article (and responses to comments).

Hello from Panama,

Moi

Look forward to your next post, it’s actually quite nice to chill out for while, so much aguish in the world these days, I think I will read some sci-fi, get my mind off all the trouble.

Thanks.

You offer an interesting perspective. I will have to research into this more to come to a final conclusion.

b’shalom

bananabrain

Too much work (a four letter word) and not enough hands, I’m afraid.

Best comment I have read on the Internet in months.

As I am persona non grata at Harrys Place these days, I will, if I may, reside around here for a while, free entertainment included.

A question:

You guys seem a bit short of posts these days, how come?

as i say, it’s complicated.

b’shalom

bananabrain

It’s quite obvious from your particular obsessions and writing style that you are none other than “munir”/”blah”/”me” etc.

You spent an illustrious 6 months posting anti-Jewish, anti-Sikh, anti-Hindu, pro-Islamist, misogynistic, homophobic and sectarian poison on Pickled Politics. Things got so bad that Sunny and team finally banned you, making you the first and only person who has ever been banned from PP. There’s even a entire post dedicated to the ugly matter, on which mild-mannered Rumbold calls you a racist.

http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/5326

tsk tsk tsk

No matter. We on Spittoon, however, will never ban you because lunatics like you provide too much free entertainment to turn away.

Right so you would support a paper giving a positive spin on the protocols in the interests of “giving coverage to a wide variety of views, “. Your view of Eurabia isnt the issue here-its your condone positive coverage of it that is

what rubbish. you keep on making these ridiculous accusations and all you’re doing is making yourself seem like more of an imbecile. and, more to the point, despite its irrelevance, firstly, the jc didn’t even *give* eurabia “positive coverage” and, secondly, the protocols are a FORGERY. no jew holds these views. are you telling me that the likes of anjem choudary and the disciples of the ikhwan in europe DON’T hold the points of view described in eurabia? i do not believe, as i’ve already said, that eurabia is a pan-islamic conspiracy theory, but even as an aspiration held by a tiny group of islamists it is still 100% more real than the protocols ever have been, so, frankly, you’re even more of an imbecile to bring it up.

the standard dogmatic narrative of perpetual Jewish suffering

it is hardly “standard” or “dogmatic” to mention that jewish life as a dhimmi in islamic spain was not paradise. are you suggesting that jews have not suffered perpetually in our 2,000-year exile? i should point out, incidentally, that i think the trope of jewish suffering is one i do not spend a great deal of time indulging – i’d prefer to get on with fixing stuff.

Jews in Muslim lands certainly were treated far far better than Muslims are under the Jewish state now

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi#Humiliation_of_dhimmis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_of_omar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Najis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almohad#Religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_Granada_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiraz_blood_libel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1934_Thrace_Pogroms
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farhud

the last time i posted these links, it was in response to guess who? and i’m not getting into the “who’s a worse oppressor” punch-and-judy show, all this is is a pathetic attempt from you to derail the argument.

The general trend in Muslim rule was Jewsih migration into Muslim ruled areas- the trend in Jewish rule has been Muslim expulsion from Jewish areas. Big difference

http://www.justiceforjews.com/

and you have the cheek to accuse *me* of cherry-picking?

Ah yes but HT etc are still Muslims. If I referred to a group of Jews as “bearded inbreds” (your actual phrase in your first article here on Spitton) – even Jews you didnt agree with like NK you would be up in arms.

yeah, because i’ve got nothing better to do than argue irrelevancies with cretins. hang on… why am i posting this again?

Its cool though – shows what you really think of Muslims

i think what it shows is that all this time you’ve been trying to catch me out you’re just making yourself look more of a nincompoop.

b’shalom

bananabrain

i am perfectly happy to agree that nobody should take the law into their own hands. *cough*jewel of medina*cough*.

Me too *cough*attacks on Holocaust revisionists*cough*. Islam doesnt permit vigilantism -punishments are the sole preserve of the state/authorized religious authorities (oops am I allowed to say that on Spittoon?)

Perhaps you could pass your message on to your fellow Orthodox Jewish settlers who attackk palestinians launch pogroms against them etc- Oh wait they are supported by the Jewish state and its terrorist soldiers in doing so

i was talking about the jc’s editorial position, in that it gives coverage to a wide variety of views,

Right so you would support a paper giving a positive spin on the protocols in the interests of “giving coverage to a wide variety of views, “. Your view of Eurabia isnt the issue here-its your condone positive coverage of it that is

yes, muslims and jews “lived together peacefully” – if you don’t count the almohad and almoravid persecutions.

yes, jews were “treated well” – compared to under christian rule, when the religious leadership was lax and if you ignore the fact that they were dhimmi and second-class citizens (that is rather a lot of caveats)

yes, we “flourished” under muslim rule – but then, we also flourished under christian rule, despite persecution; it was basically a choice between christian repression or muslim contempt.

yes, we had a “golden age”, but by the same token, the truly golden age of jewish rabbinic scholarship was in fact under roman military dictatorship.

either way, poetry, wine and roses this ain’t. historical fact is not in dispute here.

No its zionist cherry picking as well as the standard dogmatic narrative of perpetual Jewish suffering

Jews in Muslim lands certainly were treated far far better than Muslims are under the Jewish state now and its worth remembering that Muslim rule was in pre-modern times . Israel has slaughtered more Muslims in its 60 year histrory than Muslim did Jews in 1400 years.

The general trend in Muslim rule was Jewsih migration into Muslim ruled areas- the trend in Jewish rule has been Muslim expulsion from Jewish areas. Big difference

in fact, i wasn’t calling all muslims “inbred beardies”(i think that was the phrase i used), merely referring to “the likes of HBT and the rest of the islamist peanut gallery”,

Ah yes but HT etc are still Muslims. If I referred to a group of Jews as “bearded inbreds” (your actual phrase in your first article here on Spitton) – even Jews you didnt agree with like NK you would be up in arms. Its cool though – shows what you really think of Muslims

if you want to be specific, i believe i actually referred specifically to munir, if indeed he is you, as it would seem, as a “prating, ignorant little dog’s pizzle”.

If I wasnt being criticised by zionists/those who are anti-Muslim or worse still being praised by them Id know Im doing something terribly terribly wrong. So I wear any insults as a badge of pride.

It doesnt stop zionists promoting Muslims who have similiar amounts of popularity in the Muslim community

no, it doesn’t, because contrary to what you may think, “zionists” do not meet up down the pub with neturei karta to work out how to align their tactics. it is a completely different set of people, who do not care what the other lot are up to. honestly, this isn’t that hard to understand.

nor implying that Muslims who commit terrorist acts (who represent about the same perecntage) as being representative of true Islam or Muslims

i haven’t so much as implied that. are you suggesting i am responsible for every right-wing nincompoop in the zionist world? it is completely irrelevant.

the fact NK need police protection from members of the Jewish community reflects badly on them not the Jewsih community.

the point is that his PoV is not popular, even with the community he purports to represent.

Seems your imply that the Jewish community is some absolute standard of goodness so even when they threaten people its good

i haven’t implied it. his own community is the haredi community of cheetham hill in manchester. vigilantism is unusual at most in the jewish community anywhere, let alone up there. it is extraordinary that someone should provoke such an extreme reaction. i am perfectly happy to agree that nobody should take the law into their own hands. *cough*jewel of medina*cough*.

US zionists are happy to cosy up to right-wung Evangelical Christians who believe Jews ruling Palestine is a necessary condition for Jesus (peace be upon him)’s return – whereupon all the Jews there will either convert of be slaughtered by him.

that’s right, that must be why i didn’t, for example, make this comment over at harry’s place:
it is the same part of me that bangs my head against the wall every time some right-wing israeli politician talks about how supportive so-called “christian zionists” are. yeah, idiot – they are waiting for the “end times”, when most of us are supposed to be killed in the armageddon war and the rest convert when jesus returns. point 10 all over. feckin’ eejits.

honestly, is this really what you call a critique? it’s truly laughable even by your standards.

b’shalom

bananabrain

Now, there are some lunatic Jews who actually believe that it is their task to rebuild the Temple – they’re smaller in number than the NK.

You mean like Rabbi Shlomo Goren at the time of the 1967 Israeli invasion of al-Quds who called for the Dome of the Rock to be blown up?
http://www.middleeast.org/archives/1999_01_05.htm
He was Chief Rabbi of Israel – hardly a lunatic fringe (though certainly a lunatic)

For the rest of orthodox Judaism, the Messianic age essentially operates on the symbolic level

Clearly a total lie as Banana Brains post reiterates:

1. as jews, we believe the messiah will come one day.

2. when he shows up , he will sort everything out and the jewish people will be saved.
3. as part of this process, the jewish people will return to our ancestral homeland in eretz yisrael and universal peace, justice and brotherhood will prevail.
4. as orthodox jews (of all stripes) believe, this return will involve the building of the Third Temple in jerusalem and the restoration of the davidic monarchy.
5. as ultra-orthodox jews believe, the messianic state will be a theocracy and all jews will become religious (and, obviously, ultra-orthodox).

You are deceitfully trying to pass off the views of reform/Conservative Jews as those of the Orthodox:

Orthodox Judaism
Orthodox Judaism maintain that Jews are obliged to accept the 13 Principles of Faith as formulated by Maimonides in his introduction to Chapter Helek of the Mishna. One of these principles refers to the belief in the coming of the messiah. The 13 principles were reformulated as a formulaic incantation, starting in each case with the words Ani Maamin (I believe). Number 12 is the main principle relating to Mashiach. The Text is as follows:

Ani Maamin B’emunah Sh’leimah B’viyat Hamashiach. V’af al pi sheyitmahmehah im kol zeh achake lo b’chol yom sheyavo.

In English: I believe with full faith in the coming of the Messiah. And even though he tarries, with all that, I await his arrival with every day.

Hasidic Judaism
Hasidic Jews tend to have a particularly strong and passionate belief in the immediacy of the Messiah’s coming, and in the ability of their actions to hasten his arrival. Because of the piousness, wisdom, leadership abilities, and sometimes, supernatural capabilities[citation needed] of the Hasidic Masters, members of Hasidic communities are sometimes inclined to regard their dynastic rebbes who are descended from him as potential candidates for Messiah. Many Jews, especially Hasidim, adhere to the belief that there is a person born each generation with the potential to become Messiah, if the Jewish people warrant his coming; this candidate is known as the Tzadik Ha-Dor, meaning Tzaddik (a Hebrew term literally meaning “righteous one” but used to refer to holy men who can, for example, preform miracles or act as an intermediary between man an God) of the Generation. However, fewer are likely to name a candidate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_messianism#Present-day_positions

. However in the hands of religious Zionists – with whom they will share 99% of the same theology – the texts produce quite a different result.

Yes we know- 60 years of slaughtering, expelling starving and humiliating the original inhabitants of the land the Palestinians, stealing their land, water and resources to build illegal settlements, launching pogroms against them , massacring them in mosques, abusing their religion etc etc with frequently calls to expel them by religious zionists

Isnt David T an A1 hypocrite? He supports political expressions of HIS religion (Religious zionism) and even appears to defend religious zionist settlers while spending his time condeming the same in Muslims

This is a point worth remembering when discussing ‘essential Islam’ – there’s no such thing.

Yes there is- there is orthodox Islam. This is the Islam of the 4 Sunni schools of thought (Hanafi/Shafi/Maliki/Hanbali) which is followed by more than 80% of the worlds Muslims and is the way of all the major Muslim centres of learning (Al Azhar, Fez, Deoband etc)

One can (according to you) be a Jew without believing the Torah is the word of God- one cannot be a Muslim if one doesnt believe the Quran is the word of God

Jihadists are no more ‘quintessential Muslims’ thqn the NK are ‘true Torah Jews’.

“Jihadists” is a made up word by non-Muslims. This comment is true but an irrelevant non-sequiter (because “Jihadists” are quintessential Muslims no Orthodx Islam exists)

it’s extremely important to know what you’re dealing with, when NK speakers are presented (as they invariably are) as giving “the” (not “a”) “real” jewish view of zionism:

1. there are something like 14 million jews worldwide. in the best case scenario, NK represents something between 5-10,000 people, or 0.07% of the jewish community. in terms of the UK, it would be the equivalent of taking the opinion of a town about the size of bognor regis as representative of the UK of a whole.

So? It doesnt stop zionists promoting Muslims who have similiar amounts of popularity in the Muslim community nor implying that Muslims who commit terrorist acts (who represent about the same perecntage) as being representative of true Islam or Muslims

3. even the rest of the ultra-orthodox community (much of which is against a non-theocratic jewish state in any case) dislikes NK and ahron cohen himself has needed police protection from his own community.

Riiiight – so the fact NK need police protection from members of the Jewish community reflects badly on them not the Jewsih community. Would you say the same for unpopular Muslims/ex-Muslims who need protection from the Muslim community. You would find that idea monstrous.
Seems your imply that the Jewish community is some absolute standard of goodness so even when they threaten people its good

10. once the Messiah comes, in order to build the Third Temple he’ll need to knock down the mosques on the Temple Mount, but that won’t matter, because G!D will neutralise the muslim menace by some Divine means, presumably a plague or mass conversions, or knocking them all off or something.

one wonders how many of the people listening to rabbi cohen at the al-quds day rally will be apprised of point 10, but it’s certainly worth pointing out.

More zionist hypocrisy. US zionists are happy to cosy up to right-wung Evangelical Christians who believe Jews ruling Palestine is a necessary condition for Jesus (peace be upon him)’s return – whereupon all the Jews there will either convert of be slaughtered by him.

one rule for the zionists another for the Muslims/everyone else

The zionists in the US are even more extreme- they sponsors talks and documentaries from ex-Muslims on how Muslims are a threat to the USA and trying to take over etc.

zionists, from wherever, can be right-wing, left-wing, religious and non-religious and so on and so on. i know you have no concept of this difference despite it having been pointed out to you until i’m blue in the face. i am sure there are some zionists who do this. i do not support it. i think it’s a stupid thing to do. nonetheless, the fact that i haven’t written about it does not detract one iota from my points about neturei karta, so this is pure whataboutery.

how can they complain when Muslims do likewise with Orthodox Jews

i’m not doing it, so i am perfectly entitled to make this point. i’m sorry if that is inconvenient to your little propaganda war.

b’shalom

bananabrain

The zionists in the US are even more extreme- they sponsors talks and documentaries from ex-Muslims on how Muslims are a threat to the USA and trying to take over etc.

They also promote Muslims who claim that according to Islam all Palestine should belong to the Jews !!!. I believe David T’s heroine Mel Phillips supports such people and it wouldnt suprise me if HP did too.

Since zionists promote Muslims who believe Palestine shouldnt exist (such as the aforementioned) how can they complain when Muslims do likewise with Orthodox Jews (who unlike Muslims are actually promoting an Orthodox position)?

All the Muslims mentioned above have as much credibility in the Muslim community as this article claims NK has in the Jewish

Ah yes because as we know its one rule for the zionists another for the Muslims/everyone else !

This is someone who – when told the Jewish Chronicle had published a favourable piece on Eurabia , staple of the far right (the modern protocols which posits the idea that there is a secret Muslim conspiracy to take over Europe) responded “well its good to have a variety of opinions”

i don’t think this is a direct quote – for one thing, i would have used an apostrophe. i remember the conversation, but you are failing to give the context or a link. i was talking about the jc’s editorial position, in that it gives coverage to a wide variety of views, not about my own opinions on eurabia which are, in fact, that it is a load of bollocks – at least as an organised conspiracy, whilst at the same time being an accurate description of the aspirations of, say, anjem choudary, as opposed to your average mosque leadership, which would be horrified at the suggestion.

is so extereme he denies historical fact- he denies Muslim andJews ever lived together peacefully, that Jews were treated well and flourished under Muslim rule or that they had a golden age during Muslim rule

again, that isn’t what i said. you’re probably referring to this comment:

http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1139#comment-65252

to be precise, none of your characterisations have operational definitions that i agree with:

yes, muslims and jews “lived together peacefully” – if you don’t count the almohad and almoravid persecutions.

yes, jews were “treated well” – compared to under christian rule, when the religious leadership was lax and if you ignore the fact that they were dhimmi and second-class citizens (that is rather a lot of caveats)

yes, we “flourished” under muslim rule – but then, we also flourished under christian rule, despite persecution; it was basically a choice between christian repression or muslim contempt.

yes, we had a “golden age”, but by the same token, the truly golden age of jewish rabbinic scholarship was in fact under roman military dictatorship.

either way, poetry, wine and roses this ain’t. historical fact is not in dispute here.

insults Muslims calling us “bearded inbreds

in fact, i wasn’t calling all muslims “inbred beardies”(i think that was the phrase i used), merely referring to “the likes of HBT and the rest of the islamist peanut gallery”, which you clearly inhabit. if you want to be specific, i believe i actually referred specifically to munir, if indeed he is you, as it would seem, as a “prating, ignorant little dog’s pizzle”.

now *that’s* what you call a direct quote.

b’shalom

bananabrain

This is someone who
- when told the Jewish Chronicle had published a favourable piece on Eurabia , staple of the far right (the modern protocols which posits the idea that there is a secret Muslim conspiracy to take over Europe) responded “well its good to have a variety of opinions” !. Im sure if a newspaper published a pro-protocols piece he and the other zionists would say the same “its good they are printing a variety of opinions”!

- is so extereme he denies historical fact- he denies Muslim andJews ever lived together peacefully, that Jews were treated well and flourished under Muslim rule or that they had a golden age during Muslim rule

-insults Muslims calling us “bearded inbreds” – then expects us to listen to a word he says

Actually Im not suprised he write articles here – this is Spitton after all!