http://www.salafitalk.net/st/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=9&Topic=4260

“The burdah invites to shirk”. HAHAHAHAHA. What a joker.

But what any of this has to do with homosexuality, I don’t know.

Abu jackson, I really hope you’re joking, because
if you’re being serious then it must be a very
sad and scary world that you live in. I would
ask you proof of your statements but I know I
won’t get any, because there isn’t any. Its just
a received opinion or one that’ve fabricated on a whim.

Try reading the burdah with a Shaykh, not by
yourself, and try sitting with Hamza Yusuf in
a situation where you can ask him questions.
These are the traditional ways, the adab, of learning
in Islam.

In any case, thanks for the laugh.

The courses taught at his institute use the book “Jawharat ut-Tawheed” – the book that preaches and invites to the heresies of ta’teel and (false) ta’weel and tafweed, a book which is a base and pole for the Mu`attilah. His institute teaches al-Burdah of al-Busayree which is a poem that invites to Shirk with Allaah, invites to Istigaathah from other than Allaah, and which has been refuted by the Scholars of Tawheed and the Sunnah.

Since when did you guys take so much interest in Homo’s?

Abu-Yusuf, just like sascha baren’s Bruno, you seem like a closet gay in bearded disguise!

The courses taught at his institute use the book “Jawharat ut-Tawheed” – the book that preaches and invites to the heresies of ta’teel and (false) ta’weel and tafweed, a book which is a base and pole for the Mu`attilah. His institute teaches al-Burdah of al-Busayree which is a poem that invites to Shirk with Allaah, invites to Istigaathah from other than Allaah, and which has been refuted by the Scholars of Tawheed and the Sunnah.

S

Munir, it must be difficult coming to terms with the fact that thousands of simple people who have lived and died Muslims have heard all the fatwas, edicts and strictures on homosexuality before but ultimately couldn’t care less what the gainsayers and the orthodoxy have to say.

Legend has it that the feeling of peace that can be discerned at the Madho Lal-Shah Hussain shrine has the power to cure madness. Have you considered paying a visit or two?

With regards to homosexuality in Islam, I would have had the same opinion as you until recently when I heard some fairly knowledgable imams. whose names I mentioned in my post, who have openly spoken about their own homosexuality and speak very knowledgably about this topic.

Personally, I have no fatwa about the subject of homosexuality. I leave the judgement of Allah’s creatures upto Allah. But I also think it would be very interesting to hear a discussion between someone like Sh. Hamza Yusuf and one of the aforementioned imams.

But you know what? You will probably come back with some further misunderstanding of this post and so it will go on. I am fast losing faith in the internet as a medium of discssion. So.. whatever.

Allahu ‘alem. wa Huwa ala kullu shayyin Qadir.

Also notice that one might accuse Hamza Yusuf, and his like, of double standards in that they ask people to understand that the Prophet’s marriage to Aisha was a reflection of the customs of the time, but then to accept the Islamic proclamation that homosexuals are outside the fold of Islam in a time when homosexuality is accepted and promoted.

You share the same lack of comprehension as Faisal. He didnt say homosexuals were outside the fold of Islam – he said anyone who says homosexuality is halal (lawful) is outside the fold of Islam

With regards the Prophet (sallaAllahu alayhi wasalaam)s marriage – there is no text telling us to get married at such and such age. There are clear cut mutawatir text (the Quran) telling us homosexuality is forbidden. Thus one who says it isnt forbidden has denied the Quran.

This is a discussion that Hamza Yusuf may want to have have with openly gay Imams like Muhsin Hendricks and Dayiee Abdullah who seem to have squared their homosexuality with God. It would be an interesting discussion. Someone should host it…

Why? There is no debate on this issue. These people are commiting a major sin by doing this – but they are still Muslims. If they say its halal they are non-Muslims

It is evidence of how deviant and extreme you people are that you criticise Hamza Yusuf for extremism!

Faisal

As for the Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, if that’s what he said I think that’s pretty irresponsible of him. By that is he saying the 16th century sufi sheikh Shah Hussain of Lahore wasn’t a muslim?

He saying what islam says- someone who says homosexuality is halal is not a Muslim.

And someone who commits such major sins is not a “sufi” and “sheikh” much less a “saint”

“If one considers it acceptable in Islam [to be gay], then he or she is not considered to be a Muslim by consensus of the scholars,” Yusuf said. “On this I know no debate whatsoever.”

Notice that this is a description of the scholars’ attempts to define Islamic ‘aqida (which is what they do best). It is not an exhortation or an approval of gay-bashing – a pastime which is shared by muslims and non-muslims alike.

Also notice that one might accuse Hamza Yusuf, and his like, of double standards in that they ask people to understand that the Prophet’s marriage to Aisha was a reflection of the customs of the time, but then to accept the Islamic proclamation that homosexuals are outside the fold of Islam in a time when homosexuality is accepted and promoted.

This is a discussion that Hamza Yusuf may want to have have with openly gay Imams like Muhsin Hendricks and Dayiee Abdullah who seem to have squared their homosexuality with God. It would be an interesting discussion. Someone should host it…

People who bash Islam based on, for example, Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha have a lot in common with a certain type of fundamalist Muslim who wants to impose 1400 year old norms on contemporary society. They share a rigidity of view, and an inability to see the validity of other viewpoints, and just the lack of understanding that times change.

Hamza Yusuf on Aisha’s marriage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM4IuDVFL3s

According to most Muslim theologians Homosexuality is evil, masturbation is haram, fasting is good for you, buying and selling slaves is morally okay and marrying 6 year old and consumating the marriage when they are 9 is also okay.

However, I don’t think homosexuality is evil, masturabtion can be a healthy thing, fasting is actually quite bad for your health, buying and selling slaves is morally repugnant and marrying 6 year old and sleeping with them at 9 is just plain wrong.

So the question is – as Muslims how do we reconcile what most Muslim theologians say with modern norms and ethics? How many of you would give your 6 year old daughter in marriage to a man in his 50s? What would you do if your son was gay?

I don’t claim to have the answers but these are the discussions we need to have.

The hatred of these songs-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj8C43r4zm0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g6bUe5MDRo

Or are they unnacceptable to you?

Some rather obvious points:

1) Sexuality is a property not an act of volition, an adjective not a verb. You might choose to do a homosexual act or have sex with your slaves/concubines and groom a nine year old child for marriage. They’re all acts of will but you don’t choose to be hetero- or homosexual.

2) Having sex with your concubines was a social norm in 7thC Arabia but we who live in the modern world would be lucky to have such fun! The texts might sanction them but modern human rights and social norms make them unacceptable. And whether you like it or not, you’re bound by the social norms you live in.

3) We live in a world where homosexuals, women and children have rights. Muslims living today cannot choose to ignore their rights anymore than elevate the rights of the heterosexual freemen and allow them to own slaves and concubines, no matter how well he treats them.

As for the Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, if that’s what he said I think that’s pretty irresponsible of him. By that is he saying the 16th century sufi sheikh Shah Hussain of Lahore wasn’t a muslim?

Since *you* support consensual polygamy I presume you also support the keeping of slaves? Or keeping concubines and having sex with your slaves outside of your marriage?

Since these are all sanctioned by the primary texts,

Which “primary texts”?

My understanding is that the only primary text in Islam is the Quran. Everything else is secondary and tertiary, or historicity and exegesis.