Flyer for Hounslow Muslim Forum's inaugural event, 'Putting Contest 2 In Context'
This Saturday 11th July, Lampton School, a comprehensive in Hounslow, is to host the inaugural meeting of Hounslow Muslim Forum. At the event, this new group will be discussing Contest 2, the government’s latest counter-extremism strategy with a panel of speakers and Inspector Alan Murphy of Metropolitan Police “Prevent and Engagement” Team, Hounslow.
This is all well and good, but have a look at the bottom of the flyer where the groups which make up Hounslow Muslim Forum are listed. One name stands out – Hizb ut-Tahrir.
At the same time that the Sunday Times revealed Hizb ut-Tahrir’s violent ambitions, the Metropolitan Police is planning to get involved with (and a state school is planning to host) an event which advertises its links to Hizb ut-Tahrir on its flyers.
It gets worse. Have a look at those who will speak alongside Inspector Alan Murphy on this (partially) Hizb ut-Tahrir platform. Apart from Temoor Khan about whom I nothing more than what the flyer says – he is a “youth worker and local resident” – the other names are biggies. Moazzem Begg and Daud Abdullah.
Moazzem Begg has managed to forge a successful career out of being an ex-Guantanamo Bay detainee. Here is an interview carried out by Begg with Anwar al-Awlaki. Given the opportunity to challenge a proponent of violent jihad, Begg, er, invited him round for tea.
MB: Are you allowed to travel outside the Yemen? Obviously, many people want you to come to the United Kingdom and elsewhere, to come and give lectures, and you’ve only been out a few days! I think this is based on a question from a lot of your supporters, subhan Allah. Are you allowed to travel outside the Yemen to give lectures?
AA: Well, I would like to travel. However, not until the US drops whatever unknown charges it has against me.
Begg will probably be very comfortable in the knowledge that this event is mixed up with Hizb ut-Tahrir; here he is speaking at an HT rally about Gaza. The full message on the banner behind him reads “Muslim Armies Must Defend Gaza. Hizb ut-Tahrir, Britain”.
Moazzem Begg speaks at Hizb ut-Tahrir rally
The other notable speaker is Daud Abdullah. He had a falling out with Hazel Blears after he signed a declaration legitimising attacks on anybody who stands with Israel wherever they are in the world and saying that any international naval force sent to guard Gaza’s coast would be a legitimate target for attack. This was after Gordon Brown had offered to send British ships to Gaza. As deputy director-general of the Muslim of Council of Britain, Abdullah also led the MCB’s disgraceful boycott of Holocaust Memorial Day.
And here is Abdullah at the launch of Kafa.
(8:27) We will not be forced into saying that we are secularist, democratic, non-violent etcetera… We are Muslims
Quite apart from the questionable views and associations of the two main speakers, there is another concern about this event. It appears to be a thinly disguised attempt to increase fear and mistrust amongst Muslims in the UK. It mentions the leaked apparent draft of Contest 2 which appeared in the Guardian earlier this year but never again – certainly not in governmental policy.
Latest attempts by Westminster to “engage” the Muslim community has seen the release of a controversial policy paper called ‘Contest 2′. Though not featured in the final publication, original leaked drafts indicated the government would blacklist anyone who emphathised with traditional Islamic standpoints such as faith in the Shariah, prohibition of homosexuality, the concept of Islamic governance and belief in the notion of Jihad.
The involvement of Hizb ut-Tahrir, the choice of these particular speakers and the focus on what is not policy reveals this event’s malicious agenda. It is not a legitimate public meeting discussing a matter of importance to everybody in this country, whatever religion they believe (or disbelieve) in. It is an attempt by extremists to turn Muslims away from democratic politics and towards extremism, segregationism and/or Islamism. What on earth are Lampton School and the Metropolitan Police thinking by going along with this?
43 Comments
Absolute disgrace, no wonder Islamists flock to the UK.
Daud Abdullah: what a scumbag.
Quilliam lovers, there are such open events taking place all the time, Reading, Slough and Redbridge organised something similar. In typicical Munafiqueen fashion you have chosen to ignore the fact there is a myriad of supporting Hounslow organisations who all feel that the PVE agenda needs to be spoken about in the open. You guys should attend the third event listed below, its only fair that the Munafiqs should be allowed to advocate and represent their viewpoint also…I guess all these people are also ‘Islamists’
Your plots will fall by the wayside whilst there are still good, honest, balanced and principled Muslims busy serving and engaging their wider communities whilst also protecting the Islamic heritage of their Muslim community.
TAYYIBUN LONDON SEMINAR TOUR 2009
‘THE MUSLIM NATION, RIGHTS & OBLIGATIONS’
A three day seminar tour taking place throughout London discussion pressing issues facing the Muslim community.
REGION: WEST LONDON
Date: Wednesday 8th of July 2009
Venue: An Noor Masjid, Acton, W3 8PP
Time: 6.00- 9.00pm
Theme: ‘In Defence of the Muslim Lands’
Speakers and topics:
* Ustadh Uthman Lateef (Abu Mujahid)- ‘The Crusades for Jerusalem’
* Dr. Khalid Khan- ‘Invaded Lands’
REGION: EAST LONDON
Date: Thursday 9th of July 2009
Venue: London Muslim Centre (LMC), Whitechapel, E1 1JX
Time: 6.00- 9.00pm
Theme: ‘Social Ills’
Speakers and topics:
* Shaykh Sulaiman Ghani- ‘Hijaab, Freemixing & Marriage’
* Ustadh Alomgir Abdul ‘Aleem- ‘Music’
* Ustadh Wasim Kempson- ‘Al Asabiyyah wal Hizbiyyah’
* Shaykh Haitham bin Jawwad al-Haddad- ‘The Doubtful Matters’
REGION: SOUTH LONDON
Date: Friday 10th of July 2009
Venue: Lewisham Islamic Centre, Lewisham, SE13 6NZ
Time: 6.00- 9.00pm
Theme: ‘Al Munafiqeen: The Enemies Within’
Speakers and topics:
* Ustadh Uthman Lateef (Abu Mujahid)- ‘Spying on Muslims’
* Imam Shakeel Begg- ‘The Characteristics of the Munafiqeen’
* Ustadh Alomgir Abdul ‘Aleem- ‘Secularism’
Organised by the Tayyibun Institute in conjunction with our brothers & sisters of An Noor Masjid Acton and the Lewisham Islamic Centre.
FREE ADMISSION- ALL BROTHERS AND SISTERS WELCOME
NO ADVANCED REGISTRATION OR BOOKING REQUIRED
FULLY SEGREGATED
Fully segregated – i like that. If your going to do it then do it ‘fully’. What’s up Shahid scared you might get a hard on if you see a woman’s face?
‘What’s up Shahid scared you might get a hard on if you see a woman’s face?’
Ahhhh a little glimpse of the liberal, free-thinking and lewd detritus that lurks beneath the pseudo-intellectualism and God-lessness.
Lo! Those who love that slander should be spread concerning those who believe, theirs will be a painful punishment in the world and the Hereafter [Al-Qur’an 24:19]
And those who malign believing men and believing women undeservedly, they bear the guilt of slander and manifest sin [Al-Qur’an 33:58]
(The hypocrites) ..Are spiteful against Muslims for no other reason than that Allah (swt) and His Messenger (pbuh) have enriched them through His bounty! So, if they repent, it will be to their own good. But if they turn away, Allah (swt) will sternly punish them in this world and in the Hereafter. None in the world will be able to protect or help them. [Al-Qur'an 9:74]
The believers , both men and women, are allies of one another. They enjoin good, forbid evil, establish prayer, pay Zakah, and obey Allah (swt) and His Messenger (pbuh). Surely Allah (swt) will show mercy to them. Allah (swt) is All-Mighty, All-Wise. [Al-Qur'an 9:71]
Oooooh Ayats……
Can everyone please leave Shahid alone. Obviously he is very religious because he quoted at least four ayahs.
Also Shahid, thank you for reminding us of those ayahs. I think of them every time now when I see Bunglawala’s IENGAGE website or when I read Azad Ali’s blog. I hope you will join me in praying that they repent.
‘Oooooh Ayats……’
Audubillah, you really are in spiritual freefall. The lucid Words of your Lord, instead of being met with introspection are teased. No doubt the Speech of Allah (swt) transcends all times and places, the Munafiqueen of today are no different from the Munafiqueen at the time of the Prophet (pbuh). He was accussed and harrassed with many labels because he came to change and implement a complete Way of Life that challenged their materialism, base desires and objects of worship, today the kind, generous moderate, human-loving and just callers to the truth face a similar adversity, Alhamdu’Lilah we will perservere as long as we have the Words of our Lord to grant us solace, comfort and support.
‘Behold, the hypocrites seek to delude Allah (swt), but it is He who has subjected them to delusion. When they rise in prayer, they rise reluctantly, and only to be seen by people. They remember Allah (swt) but little, they dangle between belief and disbelief and belong fully to neither. And he whom Allah (swt) lets go astray, for him you can find no way.’ [Al Qur'an 4:142]
‘Do not barter away the covenant of Allah (swt) for a paltry gain. Verily that which is with Allah is far better for you, if only you knew. what ever you had is bound to pass away and whatever is with Allah wil last. and we shall surely grant those who have been patient their rewards accoring to the best of what they did. whosoever acts righteously- whether a man or awoman- and wmbraces belief, we will surely grant him a good life; and will surely grant such persons their reward according to the best of their deeds’ [Al-Qur'an 16:95]
Shahid – I feel like I owe you an explanation.
My ‘oooh ayats’ comments was the product of my frustration with debating or discussing with Islamists and puritans like yourself. When you have nothing logical or rational left to say you merely quote some random ayats which have nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand.
Righteousness and piety are subjective as far as we are concerned so those ayats could apply to you, me, Islamists, Wahabi’s, Sufi’s – anyone because it depends on who is making the judgement. Hence they are not very useful in such a debate because they are based on you interpreting them to a particular set of people, i.e. it is merely your opinion.
Furthermore, you are also performing Takfir if you believe these ayats are relevant to us since these ayats were revealed for those who were in fact non-Muslims and only pretending to be Muslims to fool people. I believe no one on this site fits that category.
However, this does give us an insight into your mindset. One that is full of rash judgements, self-righteousness, bigotry and a general lack of common sense.
Now is there any isse you want to debate objectively?
the theme of the 10th July Tayyibun event that Br. Shahid is advertising for his institute (which are you Wassatiya or Tayyibun?) is very sinister indeed – all about how Muslims should not report the actions of their brothers in any circumstance – ie dont report suspicious activitiy in your community to the koof police officers. VERY irresponsible…
Shaitan, what is sinister is the deciet, distortion and treachery perpetuated by this two bit site. How do you conflate exposing Munafiqs such as yourselves with informing the authorities about actual subversives? These events are open to all, you and your decietful friends could come along and listen, talk and even debate with these ‘monsterous, evil, criminal’ speakers, as could anyone else. How does the community get to engage with you, you should also be willing to defend your heresy and hypocrisy in public, why not come out from behind such cowardice filled forums and face the puritanical community you defame and slander? The truth is your fallicious narratives wouldn’t stand the test traditional Islamic scholarship.
BTW Ibn Khuldun, how do you conclude that the ayahs mentioned are random and only opinion…
Lo! Those who love that slander should be spread concerning those who believe, theirs will be a painful punishment in the world and the Hereafter [Al-Qur’an 24:19]
And those who malign believing men and believing women undeservedly, they bear the guilt of slander and manifest sin [Al-Qur’an 33:58]
You are slandering Daud Abdullah as a scumbag and maligning the work of a collection of community groups who wish to practice their democratic choice and freedom of association, to air their lawful viewpoints in an open and inclusive manner, who are you to cast dispersions and doubts on their motives? These ayahs were revealed for all time, your speech and actions make them specific and relevant to individuals just like you!
This might be a ‘two-bit site’ but you just can’t stop reading our posts can you?
Hahaha. Another Islamist hypocrite.
Abu Hanifa – you have missed my point completely, i’ll explain one more time only. Accusations of ‘muanfiq’ can be applied to anyone, it is subjective. I could call all wahabi’s and Salafi’s ‘munafiq’ and then quote a few ayats. What does that prove. It is like calling you an idiot or a liar – it is merely opinion. So throwing accusations around and performing takfir don’t get us anywhere, lets debate the points instead.
As for backbiting – well no one had a monopoly on that one now do they. Your purtian friends are happy to attack anyone they disagree with but if they are attacked they yell ‘slander’. It doesn’t work that way i’m afraid. Anyone who has a public profile and makes public statements opens him/herself up for criticism. Again throwing a few random ayats around which could easier be applied to your types as well just stifles the discussion because it is based on a subjective view. Unless of course you think everything you say is objective and divinely sanctioned.
“Ahhhh a little glimpse of the liberal, free-thinking and lewd detritus that lurks beneath the pseudo-intellectualism and God-lessness”
No pal, they’re just laughing at you.
Shahid,
Our beloved Rasul alayhi Salam warned us of Khawarij scum like you and your Islamist friends who wished to use our Islamic faith to rebel by force against rulers they didn’t like simply to suit their own manipulations of Islam. Hark! For he alayhi salat al-salam warned us that you would pray better than us, you would recite better than our recitation, indeed you would ‘look’ more religious than us, but that you would be filthy scum of who he, in his divinely inspired wisdom said:
“Uqtuluuhum hayth ma wajadtumuuhum”
Kill them wherever you find them…
It is narrated that RasulAllah (saw) said: “There will appear from this man’s progeny people who one of you would belittle his own prayer when compared with theirs, and his fasting compared to theirs. (But) they will pass through the religion just as an arrow might pass through a target.” (Bukhari; Muslim)
RasulAllah (saw) also said: “Indeed there will be a people amongst you who will feign in worshipping Allah until the people become amazed with them and they become amazed with themselves. They will shoot through the religion just as the arrow shoots through the game.” (Abu Ya’la, musnad with sahih sanad.)
So spare us your piety… I agree with my brother ibn Khaldun 100% when he mocks you quoting ayat, I will mock your piety and quoting of ayat just as my Prophet alayhi Salam has commanded me to do, because your fake piety befogs not my mind, and softens not my heart to your filthy intentions and your ignoble aims! You are scum, yes, hark oh HT and al-qaeda Jihadi filth, you are scum who deserve to be chased and hounded till the earth is purified from your putrid smell!
Imam Ajurri said: “It is not permissible for the one who sees the uprising of a khariji who has revolted against the leader, whether he is just or opressive, so this person has revolted and gathered a group behind him has pulled out his sword and has made lawful the killing of Muslims it is not fitting for the one who sees, he becomes deceived by this persons recitation of the Qur’an, the length of his standing in the prayer, nor his constant fasting, nor his good and excellent words in knowledge when it is clear to him that this persons way and methodology is that of the Khawarij.” (ash-Shariah 28)
So we are not fooled by your SubhanAllahs and your MashaAllahs and your segregated rooms (when in reality all you ever dream about is enslaving kuffar women and taking them as concubines as your filthy Jihadi bretherin did in Algeria!)!
Al-Bukhaaree reported in his Saheeh (6930), Muslim in his Saheeh (1066), Ahmad in his Musnad (1/113), Ibn Abee ‘Aasim in his As-Sunnah (914) and ‘Abdullaah bin al-Imaam Ahmad in his As-Sunnah (1487): From ‘Alee (radyAllaahu ‘anhu) who said: “I heard Allaah’s Messenger (sallAllaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) say: ‘Towards the last days, a people will emerge who will be young in age and have foolish ideas. They will speak with the best speech of the creatures. Their Eemaan will not go past their throats. So wherever you encounter them, kill them, for indeed there will be a reward for the one who kills them on the Day of Judgement.’”
You see!! You Islamists and you HT’ers are all young (as the hadith said!), you have foolish ideas, you all seem to be very eloquent in your speech, as the hadith said, and you have no Eemaan, you are scum that deserve to be killed whenever you try ad revolt! If you try you violent and extremist military coup in any popular Muslim society we will find you and kill you and go to Jannah for it as our Ulema have instructed us based upon our noble Prophets teachings! But if you merely talk, we will expose your filthy nifaq and your dubious deen till the world detests you like we do!
He also said you would be soft with disbelievers and harsh with believers. As the Prophet (sallAllaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) said: “And they will kill the People of Islaam, while leaving alone the people of Awthaan (idols).(Part of a long hadeeth reported by Ahmad, Muslim, Al-Bukhaaree and others [Abridged by the translator)
We beleaguered and normal Muslims have seen how you pander and panic to impress disbelievers that you are "non-violent", representative, anti-dictatorships, pro-human rights, yet you then, behind their backs, and to our faces, declare us to be apostates that you will kill in your Animal farm like Utopian Caliphate. Lo! We have seen how you focus all your energies in fighting the Muslim rulers, ignoring fighting Israeli occupation and all other atrocities because you claim that more important is to cause sedition within Muslim ranks than to build strong countries hat can withstand foreign pressure.
And dare not say that you fight not directly, and that you are not Khawarij because you don't raise weapons... nay, you are the wickedest of khawarij, for indeed there are two types, the thawriyyah ('the revolutionaries' - who actually fight) and the qa'diyya ('the sitters' - who sit and stir sedition):
“The Qa’diyyah (the sitters) are those who incite the people, stir up hatred within the hearts against the rulers and issue fatawa making lawful what Allah has declared unlawful in the name of changing the evil (munkar). And they are the wickedest of the Khawarij.” (Sharr Qatlaa, 20) Abdullah ibn Muhammad ad-Daif (ra) said: “The Qadiyyah are the wickedest of the Khawarij.” (Abu Dawud, Masailu Imam Ahmad, 271)
Ibn Hajar said: “The Khawarij of al-Qadiyyah did not hold the view of waging war. Rather, they opposed the rulers in accordance to their strength (ie: like your devious concept of nusra), they called to their opinion and along with that they beautified revolt and held it to be good.” (at-Tadheed 8/114) He also said: “The Qa’diyyah: Those who beautify revolt against the rulers yet do not actually do it themselves.” (Hadyu’s-Saree, 459)
“And the Qadiyyah are, in most cases, more dangerous than the Khawarij themselves. Since, speech, inciting hatred within the hearts and provoking the common-folks against the rulers has the most profound effect upon the souls; especially when it comes from a man who is an eloquent speaker who dupes the people with his tongue and disguises it with the Sunnah.” (al-Ajwibatu’l-Mufidah, 202)
In working to destabilize Muslim countries you do nothing but act as agents for the enemies of Islam. What makes your treachery worse is that you claim to speak in the name of Islam, just like the filthy khawarij! Your ancestors used the very same slogan as you: la hukma illa lillah! No rule but for God, and they killed Imam Ali:
And they are called al-Muhakkimah due to their objection to tahkim (arbitrary/judgment), and their statement ‘There is no judgment except for Allah.” (al-Ashari, Maqalatu’l-Islamiyya, 207)
You are scum of who ibn al-Qayyim said:
"They have textual evidences, which they fall short of in understanding
So they have been given shortness in knowledge." (Nooniyyah of Ibn Al-Qayyim pg. 97)
We will not rest till your filth has been removed from this Earth, you and your terrorists scum Jihadist friends that you defend so fiercely!
(The hypocrites) ..Are spiteful against Muslims for no other reason than that Allah (swt) and His Messenger (pbuh) have enriched them through His bounty! So, if they repent, it will be to their own good. But if they turn away, Allah (swt) will sternly punish them in this world and in the Hereafter. None in the world will be able to protect or help them. [Al-Qur'an 9:74]
Salam upon he who follows any guidance and death to the terrorist scum (Al-Qaeda/khawarij al-thawriyya) and their sympathisers (HT and Islamists/Khawarij al-Qa’daiyya).
Shahid,
If they are “good, honest, balanced and principled Muslims busy serving and engaging their wider communities”, as you call them, then why do they need to differentiate themselves from other muslims by calling themseves “Hizb ut-Tahrir”?
‘Honest’, ‘balanced’ and ‘principled’ are not words most people would associate with HT.
‘Deceptive’, ‘unbalanced’ and virtually no principles. Well said Abu Yusuf.
O Munafiqeen! Alhamdulilah by the Grace and Mercy of Allah (swt), in the face of media harrassment, unwarranted local and central government pressure and of course the two pence worth from the hypocrites, the programme was a resounding success. Indeed “They plot and they plan, but Allah (swt) also plans and He is the best of Planners” [Al-Qur'an 3:54]
Some two hundred Muslims and non-Muslims attended Saturday evenings event, with contributions from sympathetic local councillors, who acknowledged that the event was far removed from any extremist sentiment as had been insidiously and maliciously publicised by various groupings.
All the respected speakers gave a fair, honest and temperate appraisal of community concerns, working towards greater civic engagement, a unanimous rejection of extremist rhetoric and the need for a collective response to developments such as the manifestation of aspects of the Contest 2 agenda, through the appointment as consultants, of external, foreign, devisive and disruptive pseudo-intellectuals who bounce around from one extreme to another. Mosque and organisation representatives welcomed the formation of a local contact group such as the Hounslow Muslim Forum, endorsing their main objectives:
-To address issues affecting Hounslow’s Muslim community
-To act as a collective voice for Hounslow’s Muslims.
-To represent the community’s grass roots and to promote a broad spectrum of views.
-To make a positive impact and contribution towards the success and well-being of Hounslow Borough and all its residents.
After congregatory Maghrib salah, brothers, sisters and guests had dinner, browsed the book stalls and completed a comprehensive questionnaire, the results of which will be published in the forums newsletter. Future forum meetings and events are planned
O Munafiq! Alhamdulilah by the Grace and Mercy of Allah (swt), thank you for that edited and biased breakdown of Saturday’s events. Indeed “They plot and they plan, but Allah (swt) also plans and He is the best of Planners” [Al-Qur'an 3:54]
Sheraz – thanks for posting that concise summary of the events. I wish I could have attended but I was not able too. Can you also please let us know which aspects of contest 2 were objected too and who are the ‘foreign, external pseduo-intellectuals’?
Brother Shahid,
There is no point wasting your energy and time on people who chose to be misguided and deceived. It is better to spend your time giving ‘ilm (knowledge) those who wishes to learn and have love and fear of God.
I am very encouraged by this site’s continued campaign of exposing the fallacies and dangerous distortions of Islam by the racist, far-right Islamist political/religious cult of Hizbut Tahrir.
The appointed Munafiqueen who have been given funding to advise senior management at various councils are no doubt, none other than the detested, disfunctional and helpless slanderers, the Quilliam Foundation.
FistOfTheNorthStar:
Your sweeping statements, which originate from your unqualified interpretation of Quranic verses and ahadith, will Inshallah Karim stand against you on the day of Judgement.
You, behind a fake cowardly pseudonym “fistOftheNorthStar”, malign sincere Muslims who have given life and limb to account corruption and injustice, by calling them Khwarij.
Was “the man” a Khwarij when Muhammad (SAW) said:
‘The master of martyrs is Hamza bin Abdul-Muttalib and a man who stood to an oppressor ruler where he ordered him and forbade him so he (the ruler) killed him.’ [Abu Dawud]
Was the woman, in Ibn Al-Jauzi’s account of the Merits of Umar (RA) a Khwarij?
“Umar forbade the people from paying excessive dowries and addressed them saying: “Don’t fix the dowries for women over forty ounces. If ever that is exceeded I shall deposit the excess amount in the public treasury”. As he descended from the pulpit, a flat-nosed lady stood up from among the women audience, and said: “It is not within your right”. Umar asked: “Why should this not be of my right?” she replied: “Because God has proclaimed: ‘even if you had given one of them (wives) a whole treasure for dowry take not the least bit back. Would you take it by false claim and a manifest sin’”. (Al Nisa, 20). When he heard this, Umar said: “The woman is right and the man (Umar) is wrong. It seems that all people have deeper insight and wisdom than Umar”. Then he returned to the pulpit and declared: “O people, I had restricted the giving of more than four hundred dirhams in dowry. Whosoever of you wishes to give in dowry as much as he likes and finds satisfaction in so doing may do so””
She was not. But she accounted Umar (RA). Unlike today’s secular dictators who evidently hoard their own nations wealth, Umar (RA) listened to his people and managed them with justice.
Was Imam Abu Hanifa a Khwarij for turning down Caliph Al-Mansur’s command to appoint him Chief Judge?
In Ya’qubi, vol.lll, p.86; Muruj al-dhahab, vol.lll, p.268-270. It is related:
“In 763, al-Mansur, the Abbasid monarch offered Abu Hanifa the post of Chief Judge of the State, but he declined to accept the offer, choosing to remain independent. His student Abu Yusuf was appointed Qadi Al-Qadat (Chief Judge of the State) of al-Mansur regime instead of himself.
In his reply to al-Mansur, Abu Hanifa excused himself by saying that he did not regard himself fit for the post. Al-Mansur, who had his own ideas and reasons for offering the post, lost his temper and accused Abu Hanifa of lying.
“If I am lying,” Abu Hanifa said, “then my statement is doubly correct. How can you appoint a liar to the exalted post of a Chief Qadi (Judge)?”
Incensed by this reply, the ruler had Abu Hanifa arrested, locked in prison and tortured. He was never fed nor cared for.“
Imam Abu Hanifa was not Khwarij, but he listened and obeyed as per the instruction of Muhammad (SAW), since Al Mansur was a Caliph, wiked and unjust, but ruled nevertheless on the basis of Islam, unlike todays rulers who clearly do not rule on the basis of Islam, but avowed secularism.
Was Imam Al Mawardi a Khwarij when he said in Al Ahkam As Sultaniya:
“if the rulers meet their Islamic responsibilities to the public, the people must obey their laws, but if they become either unjust or severely ineffective then the Caliph or ruler must be impeached”
Was Imam Al Baghdadi a Khwarij when he said:
“Al-Baghdadi believed that if the rulers do not uphold justice, the ummah should give warning to them, and if unheeded then the Caliph or ruler can be impeached.”
Was Imam Juwayni a Khwarij when he said:
“Islam is the maqasid of the ummah, so any ruler that deviates from this goal must be impeached”
Was Imam Ghazali Khwarij when he said in his Ihyaa..:
“That oppression by a caliph is enough for impeachment”
Want to leave you with the following hadith. So be very careful about who you call names:
It is reported on the authority of Ibn `Umar that the Prophet (may peace and blessings be upon him) said: Any person who calls his brother: O Unbeliever! (then the truth of this label) would return to one of them. If it is true, (then it is) as he asserted, (but if it is not true), then it returns to him (and thus the person who made the accusation is an Unbeliever). [Muslim]
Abdul Rehman – simply criticising Muslim rulers does not mean you are some great hero or Mujahid. Secular marxists also criticise Muslim rulers, right-wing fascists also criticise Muslims rulers. The question is what alternative is being offered. In the case of HT – they are objecting on the same basis as the Khwarij and have a similar approach to theology. So I think you missed the main point entirely.
I disagree Abu wanabe.
The point entirely is about accounting injustice and tyranny peacefully. The alternative is clear. Remove corruption and injustice by bring about a ruler, from amongst the people, who agrees to implement a system which emanates from the sources of Islam. This is at one with the vast majority of Muslims in the Muslim world, as quantified the Maryland University poll about the Muslim worlds desire to live under shari’ah rule.
There are many qualified individuals in the Muslim Ummah, who have the capability of being Caliph. Most of them are in prisons, but when the environment is right, they will surface Inshallah Karim.
Abdul Rehman – respectfully it is you that have still missed the point completely.
The comparison between HT and the Khwarij is the main point, not accounting rulers. I also criticise most Muslim rulers but I think the solution is secular democracy not Islamism. The Khwarij popularised the slogan ‘no rule but Allah’s’ and this led to the tragic death of Hadrat Ali. HT are doing the same thing today.
Since when did HT ever start caring about what most Muslims want. Most Muslims can’t stand HT and they have been booted out of every Mosque in the UK. Most Muslims would not even share a platform with HT. Most Muslims in the UK are proud to be British. Most Muslims around the world believe in Democracy, as found by the same Maryland poll you quoted, so please don’t misrepresent ‘most muslims’ because I’m not that stupid.
Furthermore, the poll you quoted was only conducted in 5 Muslim majority countries not the entire Muslim world. 56% said they wanted Sharia which does not mean they want an Islamist state, since Muslims have differing meanings of ‘wanting shariah’. For example, most Muslims in Saudi and Iran already believe they have shariah. So support for Shariah does not equate to support for a HT style State. Again please don’t insult my intelligence.
A. Rahman – How many Mosques in the UK allow HT to speak there?
How many votes did Islamist groups get in the last Pakistani elections?
How many votes did Islamist groups get in the last Bangladeshi elections?
How many votes did Islamist groups get in the last Indonesian elections?
How many votes did Islamist groups get in the last Moroccan elections?
How many Muslim scholars in the world today back HT?
A. Rehman – brother what is peaceful about attempting to instigate military coups? What is peaceful about calling Muslim leaders who disagree with your ijtihad ‘kafir’ and ‘murtad’? What is peaceful about killing millions of Muslims to expand the boundaries of a state?
HT – Hidden Terror
Sheraz
Posted July 13, 2009 at 2:39 am | Permalink
‘O Munafiqeen! Alhamdulilah by the Grace and Mercy of Allah (swt), in the face of media harrassment, unwarranted local and central government pressure and of course the two pence worth from the hypocrites, the programme was a resounding success. Indeed “They plot and they plan, but Allah (swt) also plans and He is the best of Planners” [Al-Qur'an 3:54]
Some two hundred Muslims and non-Muslims attended Saturday evenings event, with contributions from sympathetic local councillors, who acknowledged that the event was far removed from any extremist sentiment as had been insidiously and maliciously publicised by various groupings.
All the respected speakers gave a fair, honest and temperate appraisal of community concerns, working towards greater civic engagement, a unanimous rejection of extremist rhetoric and the need for a collective response to developments such as the manifestation of aspects of the Contest 2 agenda, through the appointment as consultants, of external, foreign, devisive and disruptive pseudo-intellectuals who bounce around from one extreme to another. Mosque and organisation representatives welcomed the formation of a local contact group such as the Hounslow Muslim Forum, endorsing their main objectives:
-To address issues affecting Hounslow’s Muslim community
-To act as a collective voice for Hounslow’s Muslims.
-To represent the community’s grass roots and to promote a broad spectrum of views.
-To make a positive impact and contribution towards the success and well-being of Hounslow Borough and all its residents.
After congregatory Maghrib salah, brothers, sisters and guests had dinner, browsed the book stalls and completed a comprehensive questionnaire, the results of which will be published in the forums newsletter. Future forum meetings and events are planned’
Well done brothers, may Allah (swt) bless this new initiative the HMF, great to see the truth shone through, Allah (swt) states in the Qur’an that verily when you hurl truth against falsehood, falsehood is by its very nature destined to perish.
Abu Wanabe,
With respect, but I beg to differ with your sweeping statements.
“In the past there were Muslim kingdoms and Empires, never states.”
According to the oxford dictionary a “State” is:
“The territory, or one of the territories, of a government.”
Or
“A politically unified people occupying a definite territory”
The Arabic word that is used to refer to the Khilafah is “Dar Al Islam”, which is land of Islam.
From an English perspective, since “Dar Al islam” consist of a government which has a territory or consists of a politically unified people, the term “state” is apt in this translation.
During the time of Muhammad (SAW) and the four caliphs, there was only one Islamic state.
For sure as time went came to pass there were divisions amongst Muslims leading to breakaway Islamic states, but there was clearly a period where one state existed.
If we take land mass into account, then the largest Islamic state with one caliph to ever exist was that of the Ottoman era.
Clearly this was one Islamic state, which eventually declined. References for this period of history are many in number, so checking it will not be difficult.
So your statement “HT is trying to establish a mythical entity which never existed in the first place.” is clearly incorrect.
Your statement:
“We no longer live in an age if expansionist empires based on supremacist understandings of faith but rather in an age of sovereign states that believe in the rule of law.”
Is clearly incorrect. If you look at the actions of America, Russia and much of the west, in action, they are behaving no differently to so called “Empires” of the past. They broke UN resolutions and invaded and occupied countries at will. Israel is another example of an expansionist entity with its settlement expansion into Palestinian land. This expansion is occurring with the blessing of the so called international community.
Another incorrect statement:
“As for Islamic duty – well its not really about Islam since Islam is not clear on issues of statehood and rulership. We merely have differing ijtihads”
The differing ijtihads are not about the requirement for one caliph who rules by quran and sunnah, as no classical scholar (including Imam juwayni al Haramain) ever agreed to having more than one caliph who know of each other. This is as clear as day. Please provide proofs of classical scholars who have agreed the contrary.
Rather the differing ijtihads are about the method to re-establish Islam and HT is the first to say those Islamically legitimately number many.
Yet another incorrect statement:
“So how can they claim it is a duty of all Muslims, its not, its just one opinion which most scholars reject, and i’m sure if Nabhani was alive he would reject too.”
In Surah Al Anfal verse 73
“And those who disbelieve are allies to one another, (and) if you do not do so there will be Fitnah (wars, battles, polytheism, etc.) and oppression on earth, and a great mischief and corruption (appearance of polytheism).”
About which the great Mufasir Imam Tabari says:
“The best interpretation of the above verse is,
And those who disbelieve are allies to one another, (and) if you (Muslims of the whole world collectively) do not do so (i.e. become allies, as one united block with one Khalifah – chief Muslim ruler for the whole Muslim world to make victorious Allâh’s Religion of Islâmic Monotheism), there will be Fitnah (wars, battles, polytheism, etc.) and oppression on earth, and a great mischief and corruption (appearance of polytheism).”
It has been mentioned in Sahih Muslim by ‘Arfaja who said: ‘I heard Allah’s Messenger SalAllahu alaihi wasallam saying: “When you all (Muslims) are united (as one block) under a single Khalifah (a chief Muslim ruler), and a man comes up to disintegrate you and separate you into different groups, then kill that man.”
in Sahih Muslim: Narrated by Abu Sa’id Al-Khudri radiAllahu anhu: Allah’s Messenger SalAllahu alaihi wasallam said:
“If the Muslim world gave the Bai’a (pledge) to two Khalifah (chief Muslim rulers, the first one who was given the Bai’a (pledge) first will remain as the Khalifah, then kill the latter (the second) one.”
In the Sirah of Ibnu Ishaq that Abu Bakr said on the day of Saqifa: “It is forbidden for Muslims to have two Amirs for this would cause differences in their affairs and concepts, their unity would be divided and disputes would break out amongst them. The Sunnah would then be abandoned, the bida’a (innovations) would spread and Fitna would grow, and that is in no one’s interest.”
These are just a few narrations which scholars of the past and present use to make the case for the requirement of the Khilafah.
Notable scholars of today such as Nuh Amin Keller, Abdullah Bin Bayah, Shiekh, Habib Ali Al-Jifri, Sheikh Qardawi, back HT’s position that the requirment of a Khilafah is Fard, although some of them disagree with some elements Sheikh Taqi ud Din’s ijtihad. Clearly, not an issue.
Another incorrect statement:
“Since when did HT ever start caring about what most Muslims want. Most Muslims can’t stand HT and they have been booted out of every Mosque in the UK.
Most Muslims would not even share a platform with HT.”
All of the 100’s of thousands of muslims that make up HT are muslims from the Ummah. They joined this group to work with their brothers to bring hope and justice back from the clutches of tyranny.
I don’t think you read the post above, but there are countless examples of none HT affiliates who speak alongside HT or on their platform e.g. as per the article above, Dauod Abdullah and Mossim Beg.
Another incorrect statement:
“Most Muslims around the world believe in Democracy, as found by the same Maryland poll you quoted, so please don’t misrepresent ‘most muslims’ because I’m not that stupid….”
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brmiddleeastnafricara/346.php?nid=&id=&pnt=346&lb=brme
75% believe:
“require Islamic countries to impose a strict application of sharia,” and to “keep Western values out of Islamic countries.”
67% would like to
like to “unify all Islamic counties into a single Islamic state or caliphate.”
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brmiddleeastnafricara/346.php?nid=&id=&pnt=346&lb=brme
If you read the full report it states that the 67% number regarding democracy needs to be understood in the context of what a vast majority of Muslims understand democracy to be. Many think Umar Bin Al Khattabs rule was a democracy. Clearly it was not as that system consisted of one Caliph with the sources of Islam as its basis as opposed to sources of humanistic legal discourse. So the term “democracy” has many different meanings across the Muslim world.
Please avoid making incorrect statements as they show a lack of reading and depth.
Ibn Khaldun,
There is nothing peaceful about any of the answers to those rhetorical questions. HT, clearly, does not proclaim takfir on anybody. Please produce evidence of this if you have any.
Regarding state expansion. That is a hypothetical scenario analysis which is the worst case that needs to be avoided at all cost – HT is the first to say that it needs to be avoided at all cost.
Regarding Military Coups – this is what Muhammad (SAW) clearly undertook in Medina. It was bloodless as He (SAW) spent 13 years convincing tribal heads of the Aws and Khazraj Ansari tribes about Islam. The same needs to be done in the Islamic lands so in conjunction with the people on the ground, the military remove the corrupt, oppressive regimes, in a bloodless fashion. This takes time for sure. But the work to make it happen is underway and will eventually, Inshallah, succeed. This is realistic as there have been many bloodless coups to date e.g. Musharaf in Pakistan etc..
Abu Wanabe,
Again, I clearly disagree with your sweeping injunctions:
“I also criticise most Muslim rulers but I think the solution is secular democracy not Islamism. The Khwarij popularised the slogan ‘no rule but Allah’s’ and this led to the tragic death of Hadrat Ali”
To be clear it states clearly in Surah Yusuf verse 40:
“..The command is for none but Allâh..”
Please feel free to read classical interpretations by accepted scholars.
HT uses sources of Islam to justify its actions. Please do the same. Clearly, if you think that the sources of Islam are not good enough, then we can agree to disagree.
Dear Abdul Rehman,
If HT do not engage in takfir then please explain our recent guest post by former HT global leader Abdul Qadeem Zallum.
Yours,
Yossarian
A. Rehman – you are doing what the Khwaraj did again, can you not see this. Of course the rule is for Allah, Allah is soverign over the Universe and dictates that which is Islam and that which isn’t. But God didn’t tell us how to run hospitals, or corporate companies, or car showrooms or states. Islam guides our behaviour in some areas and dictates it in others. So Islam Guides how we run a state and dicates how we pray Salah. Only Khwarites confuse the two.
Yassarian,
That article does not pronounce takfir on anyone. I am not sure why you posted that link?
Abu Wanabe,
We are going around in circles. You have shown yourself to be rather immature, by shallow name calling. No need to waste my time further on this.
We can agree to disagree.
Abdul Rehman – I am not name calling, I am merely drawing anaology between the views of HT and the Khwarij – I have not called you any names personally. But if you have felt offended by my approach then I apologise and can assure you that it was not my intention to cause offense.
The ayat you quoted does support the view you are holding nor do any other ayats in the Quran. Merely dismissing me as one who doesn’t take Islamic sources seriously is not productive either since I am discussing Islamic sources. I fear it is you that is attempting to present issues that have been debated amongst Muslim theologians and are still much disputed as ‘clear cut’ in order to support a narrow political agenda that would be disasterous for the entire world.
You need to move away from the ‘samual huntingtonesque’ mindset.
Abdur Rehman,
Read this and weep, for the zeal with which you work for your fabled theo-political modernist concoction of tyranny you slanderously call a Caliphate, is the same zeal with which I will fight you and oppose you in the name of Allah! Read this and weep for the Party of Ali who killed your khawarij ancestors have been reincarnated! We will finish you Khawarij and destroy you and pray Nafila once its done.
It is simple, and as I said, you and your Jihadist brethren who encourage the military overthrow of popular secular democratic states of Muslims in the name of our Deen al-Islam, IF you are caught engaged in, preparing for, planning or executing this deserve to be fought and, if need requires, killed.
I was not talking of merely accounting them you fool. I was talking of overthrowing popular secular democratic states via military means.
If you merely speak about overthrowing these governments through military means, and don’t do anything practical to achieve it, then you are khawarij al-Qa’daiyyah (the sitters) and we will encourage your arrest and imprisonment and we will then give sadaqa to the poor to celebrate our great victory (fath) over your ilk!
This is how our Ulema have taught us, and you have no Ulema, only doctors and engineers. Don’t even try and quote me names, none of them have joined HT or al-Qaeda, so cease your deception you satanic snake!
Wallahi I have eman that I will go to jannat if I was the one who caught you executing a coup against a popular state of Muslims and killed you. My beautiful prophet (alayhi salam) commanded me to kill you if I caught you doing this, and believe me, Wallahi billahi tallahi thalathan that I will read bismillah before I pull the trigger to stop you establishing a military dictatorship in the name of Islam. (note I said military overthrow popular secular democratic – not dictatorships! – because you Khawarij are opposed to BOTH due to your sectarian beliefs so spare us your deceit O deceitful one by saying that you only oppose dictatorships, and spare us your ignorant quoting of Islamic scripture Oh you engineer’s apprentice, by claiming that accounting and being killed for it is the same as military overthrowing a regime!)
And guess what? Just as you think that you will brave torture and death in the pursuit of your tyrnanny, we will brave both and worse to stop you, because we have eman that you are on the false path and that our Prophet (alayhi salam) told us, as taught to us by our Ulema, to kill you if you try and military overthrow regimes.
Yes we read our Salat, we fast our Siyam, and we will pray nafila in your blood if you try coming to our countries to plan military coups against any of our democratic governments..
unlike the others on here, I’m not interested in convincing you, I am only interested in exposing your lies and killing you IF you implement your method by fighting our governments, otherwise I will be content with having you locked up. I am in a position to do all this because Alhamdulillah the bounty of Allah is plentiful and My Lord has given me a tongue and an arm, and power, and unless I lose my arm and tongue I will dedicate them to serve my Deen and my ulema.
Now go and cry to your false God that the “Ummah is so lost and how if only we could understand you and support you”… go and weep that (and convince yourself that you are weeping like the prophet (alayhi salam) wept for his ummah – when in reality you are weeping because you feel so alone) because your deeds will come to nothing in this life or the next, and the ummah despises you! As I quoted before, the khawarij had your zeal and devotion and readiness to sacrifice. It means NOTHING to us, you are filth, and that is why Allah will punishes you with failure after failure.
Repent.
FistOfTheNorthStar,
As your Muslim brother, I pray Allah (SWT) guides us all to the right path.
Hizb Ut Tahrir and other Islamic Groups will inshallah Karim be successful in this life and the next. – Ameen
Your comments speak volumes about your character. Hiding behind pseudonyms and making sweeping statements is easy and immature. If that is your plan to expose those you disagree with, then I can tell you it will not be effective in any way.
We disagree with eachother. I respect that, but obviously you don’t.
Ha ha hhAAAAA!!
Hilarious!!! Spare me your piety you Kharijite scum!
You have just asserted that you are my brother to appear the more pious and brotherly, because by my post I have made you look and feel like an outsider, and now you are psychologically trying to get back into the fold of brotherhood in your own head…. Did I make you feel all alone? Ahh… poor kharijite wants to be friends!! Get out of my face you deceiving lying toad!
“We disagree with each other. I respect that, but obviously you don’t.”
WHAT???? WHAT?? An HT’er kharijite Qa’diyya is saying to me that he respects disagreement? Now I will expose you once more O you piece of deceit!
If you respect MY right to consider MY secular DEMOCRATIC government as Islamic, AND NOT KUFR! I will respect you. IF you stop trying to use a miltary coup (WHICH IS VIOLENCE – stop believing your own lies about being peaceful… Hitler did that too!) to overthrow MY secular and democratic government, and accept that I am allowed my own Islamic view that secularism and Islam are perfectly on the path of Prophethod, then i will respect you. BUT, you are doing what the Israelis do to our Palestinian brethren(by kicking out them out of their homes and blaming THEM for resisting!! huh???), and like them you are so DELUDED by your ARROGANT SELF-RIGHTEOUS GOD-SYNDROME that you cannot see that it IS YOU who have not tolerated MY opinion that MY democratic governments are Islamic, and it is YOU who wants to to use an armed military coup against them!
And I warn you desist calling for a military coup, and go get a life, before yours ends by our bullet to your brain, and our sajdat al-shukr in your blood.
Read this and weep O you engineers apprentice:
RasulAllah (saw) also said: “Indeed there will be a people amongst you who will feign in worshipping Allah until the people become amazed with them and they become amazed with themselves. They will shoot through the religion just as the arrow shoots through the game.” (Abu Ya’la, musnad with sahih sanad.)
Now go away and cry… I have no interest in convicing you, only pursuing you till you desist from existence!
Shallowness extrodinaire. How weak you are, hiding behind a pseudonym, making idle threats!
I leave you with a quote from Imam Juwayni, who exposed the Mutazilite Abd Rahman Ibn Kaysan for holding the view that the caliphate was not obligatory.
“It is narrated from Abd Rahman Ibn Kaysan that the caliphate is not obligatory and that it is allowed to leave people in their differences…with nothing to bind together the disparate views. This man has attacked the consensual agreement and has replaced the rights with the ability to infringe the rights …..and this cannot be considered anything but a violation of the obligatory obedience on our neck towards the consensus and an infringement of the Sunnah that is followed and this Ijma’a is preceded by an Ijma’a that sun has set on East and West with the agreement of the scholars in all continents …….and there is no need to waste a discussion after it has become so clear. The deterrence that Allah has given to the Sultan is greater than that he has given to the Qur’an.”
[Ghiath Al-Umam, Imam Juwayni]
Jim Fitzpatrick, a British minister criticized the segregation of male and female guests at Muslim wedding. Yet another ‘Gaffe’ from another jumped up, half-baked, ill-educated Labour moron; a former fireman indeed. He learned nothing about putting out fires rather than starting them. He actually has a GCSE ‘D’ in Politics? God Help us internationally if he is ever made a Diplomat. I suppose he left in a huff because there was no beer an’ ‘Am sandwiches at the buffet. The Minister’s action is just a stupid, attention-getting stunt appealing to prejudices. This serves only to inflame the prejudices so widespread today. People have their customs, and you don’t insult them. It hasn’t been that long since our society had some public institutions that kept men and women separate. And it hasn’t been that long since women in our society typically wore hats with veils. Plenty of Western customs, we accept as normal, are unacceptable or ridiculous to others.
Muslim marriage is a religious ceremony. He insulted the bride and groom for his own political gain. They should not walk out because it would have been bad manners and rudeness to do so. They should respect the couple wishes, it’s their big day. He should have ascertained what the customs are beforehand, and then not attended if he thinks the practice offensive. One should have respect of others people’s customs, even if one does not agree. Perhaps he should grow up and get an injection of reality. If you are not prepared to accept this then don’t go or don’t insult the bride and groom by walking out. What a disgusting small minded little man. Just shows the caliber of today’s MP’s from all parties. Well being a Labour politician his appalling ignorance of Islamic tradition plus downright rudeness to his hosts does not surprise me in the least. He should do his homework instead of ruining someone’s day. He is totally an ignorant person. If a Muslim wants to have separation at a wedding (like much of the Muslim world) then they should be allowed to, and don’t insult them when they do. Jewish wedding has observed the tradition of separating of men & women at ceremonies, without raising any eyebrows. Men and women are separated in Masajid and Synagogues. Muslim secondary schools are also segregated.
In the past another British Minister Jack Straw caused a similar furore when he referred to Muslim veils as “a visible statement of separation and difference” and called for women to remove them during surgeries in his Blackburn constituency. No one has the right to ban the freedom of choice in a secular and democratic country. The right to choice is a basic fundamental right the person should have. To veil or not to veil should be an individual choice. Dress codes are for children. Muslim women should be free to wear burqas. If women get Away with wearing cropped shirts and pants that show their panties, they should be able to wear burqas too.
Globalisation is here to stay, Muslims are here to stay and so are other communities. Those idiot British ministers need to learn that the world is made up of different people and the British society and its Establishment need to learn to accept and tolerate every culture for what it is and most importantly respect and tolerate the values of each and every religion.
Iftikhar Ahmad
Dear Ifitkar,
You say:
“No one has the right to ban the freedom of choice in a secular and democratic country.”
Why then are you saying that Fitzpatrick should not be able to chose to walk out of a wedding?
Belle.